What are the Questions

[Beemer]

How come the manufactures dont follow ASTM Standards?? Why dont THEY CARE??

How come NO ONE CARES??

Back in the day we were so safety ANAL it was crazy and I thought STUPID but when I look back I long for those days. SAFETY, EDUCATION and INFORMATION. It ALL only failed for ONE reason $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Then I think about the IPPA, ASTM and all the good folks that CARED that arent around anymore.

[neppo1345]

Can you be more specific?

Either I'm spaced out at 4 A.M after some serious studying, or this doesn't make sense.

Edit: Read other thread, still doesn't make much sense.

Do you have a copy of the ASTM standards to compare current markers/barrel blockers/netting/warning labels/etc against?

[insixdays777]

its all about $$$ and CHEAP over seas manufacturing.

Example. Dangerous Power paintball. They have been having many of their micro fittings on their new G3's pop off the macro line causing hose whip. Some of the fitting have exploded and the fitting parts have flown around hitting near by people.

DP has recognized the issue and they are going with another mfg of the fittings.

What did they save 75cents per fitting to have them made in china by 12yr olds? Was it worth the danger, safety issues and bad press?

Its one thing to have cheap chinese detents, hoppers, barrels, electronics...but it becomes a very bad safety issue when the super cheap (price and quality) mentality finds its way into the "dangerous" systems on our markers i.e. regulators, fittings, hoses, valves.

ATSM cant be all places at all times and dont look into many of the parts we use on our markers.

It should be a moral duty and concern by the manufacture. Some just dont care anymore.

Seems like the price of a new players left eye is going for about .75cents these days....

[MANN]

How come the manufactures dont follow ASTM Standards?? Why dont THEY CARE??

Why should they? What is the benifit of following? As far as I know there isn't one.

Paintball didnt fail because of high rof/elec markers. They failed because there was no "governing body".

Lets take hockey for example (mainly because I play, and know examples that are easily explainable).

Id venture to guess that 90% of hockey rinks are "USA Hockey" members. Which means that if you want to play on their field you have to be a USA Hockey member. With this membership you get insurance (when playing), and various information and newsletters (membership is ~ 20 bucks a year).

With USA hockey there is a set standard of rules. IE what equipment can and cannot be used. One of the things that I have been dinged on is what helmets are allowed. I own an old JOFA hockey helmet. They sold for 50-60 bucks back in the day. These are not allowed on USA rinks due to their lack of protection. They are very thin, and lack much foam, but are comfortable, allow lots of air flow, and IMO are comfy. I cannot wear this while playing ice or roller hockey in a USA rink. I do wear it all the time when playing on frozen ponds & asphault rinks.

With this the mfrg was able to produce equipment that does have a "need". People like me who want comfort over safety.

You should not limit markers just like you should not limit cars speed. You just know that you cannot excede the speed limit, or use XX marker that does not meet X rules.

I like the idea that my CBR can do 150, and I like the idea that my viking can do 30bps. It does not mean that I will do it all the time, but occasionally both are necessary/fun.

If there is any person/originazation that the blame should be laid on it is IMO the psp/nppl/whatever other paintball org. They allowed sponsors to set the rules.

IMO ASTM stds are not always what I call up to par/over reaching. It is another governing body that plays behind a computer. OSHA says I cannot lift over 40lbs. I am not going to bow down to that limitation either.

[leloup]

What is the situation? Link?

I am a business teacher, and I always make a big deal about business ethics in my classes. I'm fightin' for you, Beemer.

[Coralis]

One could argue that alot of this came to pass by the actions of one company and its litigation/threatened litigation enforcing its questionable patents. Thus forcing companies overseas or out of business.

[chafnerjr]

One could argue that alot of this came to pass by the actions of one company and its litigation/threatened litigation enforcing its questionable patents. Thus forcing companies overseas or out of business.

I would love to blame smart parts... but really, this is kind of natural of any maturing product market... there will always be bad manufacturing moves. We as consumers have a responsibility to voice concerns and not buy the products based on the info we have. This will force the company to either change or die out. Simple free market capitalism will save the day... well that and the interwebs.

[Chronobreak]

How come the manufactures dont follow ASTM Standards?? Why dont THEY CARE??

How come NO ONE CARES??

Back in the day we were so safety ANAL it was crazy and I thought STUPID but when I look back I long for those days. SAFETY, EDUCATION and INFORMATION. It ALL only failed for ONE reason $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Then I think about the IPPA, ASTM and all the good folks that CARED that arent around anymore.

the sport has only gotten to where it is due to most fields and manufacturers being safety concious.

but some got a little out of hand over the years things seem to be settling down.

i believe there is another standards group in paintball being organized as we speak.

also OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.

[Beemer]

the sport has only gotten to where it is due to most fields and manufacturers being safety concious.

but some got a little out of hand over the years things seem to be settling down.

i believe there is another standards group in paintball being organized as we speak.

also OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.

Safety conscious?? If they dont follow ASTM STANDARDS or INSURANCE giude lines, how are
THEY safety conscious? BUT then again isnt it up to US the players. Thats the first problem. Most players dont KNOW or CARE what safety standards they should follow and inforce.

What is this other Standards group you mention?

So to follow the thread title heres a question. Applies to ALL fields[Nation wide] AND ALL Manufactures.

How many would be left standing with NO violations. If it was you, me, us or OSHA, doing the review with ASTM and insurance guide lines in hand?

Hmmmm nice point with the OSHA thing. If they start paying attention it would be a good thing. Then again the CPSC is already paying attention and its just a matter of time.

Damn OSHA, ASTM, CPSC and insurance all mentioned in the same post.

I have more questions but will make more posts so you dont think its all at you.

[cockerpunk]

i have spent a long time talking with ray from ninja about ASTM standards. looking though them there is alot of very interesting stuff, but as MANN pointed out, its totally voluntary for manufacturers to follow it. and lets keep in mind AGD falls into the category of the companies that agreed to an later rejected things like the 13 BPS rule.

over on techpb in the punkworks section we have discussed an ASTM like consumer group. much the same way as the participants in punkworks are a consumer based research group, this would be a set of standardized tests that we can all do on our equipment to evaluate it. it would not be a governing body by any means, but it would the equivalent of say a rockwell hardness testing, charpy impact testing, and other tools engineers use to evaluate materials. it would give us a common test we can all do to say "my gun shoots a 4" and "well my gun shoots a 3" why the difference?

in the coming months we should be releasing information about these standardized tests for things like paintball brittleness, efficiency of your setup, accuracy of your setup, and the like.

ray has told me that many of these standardized test ideas we have are already written down in the paintball ASTM stuff.

but i straight up told him, if the consumers arn't seeing these tests, arn't seeing the data produced by these tests, that we will just have to do them ourselves. thats kind of the mentality we have over there, if the industry isn't going to give us what we want, we'll just have to do it ourselves.

[Beemer]

and lets keep in mind AGD falls into the category of the companies that agreed to an later rejected things like the 13 BPS rule.

ray has told me that many of these standardized test ideas we have are already written down in the paintball ASTM stuff.

but i straight up told him, if the consumers arn't seeing these tests, arn't seeing the data produced by these tests, that we will just have to do them ourselves. thats kind of the mentality we have over there, if the industry isn't going to give us what we want, we'll just have to do it ourselves.

No you got that first part WRONG. He didnt reject it. You have anything to support THAT statement?

For the other part you are right. They know they just DONT tell or no one is asking. If you do ask will they tell.


What test standards are you looking at. I can tell you what tests they use for some things but have no info on ANY results.

[cockerpunk]

No you got that first part WRONG. He didnt reject it. You have anything to support THAT statement?

For the other part you are right. They know they just DONT tell or no one is asking. If you do ask will they tell.


What test standards are you looking at. I can tell you what tests they use for some things but have no info on ANY results.

ill search warpig right now ...

In 1999 the most of the major paintgun manufacturers signed an agreement stating that they wouldn't sell paintguns capable of shooting more than 13 balls per second. None that made faster paintguns pulled them from the market, and many of those companies have since come out with new paintguns capable of shooting over 13 bps. Why? I would believe because they're building what people are buying.

and

After the meeting, Bill Gardner of Smart Parts, Tom Kaye of Airgun Designs, John Rice of WDP and Bud Orr of Worr Games Products held a private meeting. They agreed to use the term "Super Semi" to describe paintguns which, through the use of electronics, mechanics, or pneumatics, aided the user in cycling the trigger faster, and thus firing faster than a traditional semi-automatic. Tom Kaye mentioned that new feed systems could be on the market in less than a year capable of reliably feeding paintguns at rates in excess of 19 shots per second, as until now one of the limiting factors in rates of fire has been reliable feed. According to Tom Kaye, in an announcement after the meeting, they agreed that they would not manufacture Super Semis capable of firing more than 13 shots per second.

from: http://74.125.95.132/custom?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Chronobreak]

Safety conscious?? If they dont follow ASTM STANDARDS or INSURANCE giude lines, how are
THEY safety conscious? BUT then again isnt it up to US the players. Thats the first problem. Most players dont KNOW or CARE what safety standards they should follow and inforce.

What is this other Standards group you mention?

So to follow the thread title heres a question. Applies to ALL fields[Nation wide] AND ALL Manufactures.

How many would be left standing with NO violations. If it was you, me, us or OSHA, doing the review with ASTM and insurance guide lines in hand?

Hmmmm nice point with the OSHA thing. If they start paying attention it would be a good thing. Then again the CPSC is already paying attention and its just a matter of time.

Damn OSHA, ASTM, CPSC and insurance all mentioned in the same post.

I have more questions but will make more posts so you dont think its all at you.

you would like to think so wouldnt you, i could name a few large manufactureres that has products i feel are not following astm standards

:cough: gen x goggles :cough:

things seema bit better of people being aware of what needs to be and should be done, but as Cockerpunk said this information is mostly hidden or cost $ for the public and even those who just want to follow these standards.

and there are ALOT to follow as mentioned ASTM, OSHA, etc as well as individual guidelines you amy set and enforce for your field/business etc.

and also has said, if the rules were striclty enforced who would be left standing? i know i would be missing a leg or kneecap probly

too bad there isnt just ONE site where i could go find all the standards that would apply to this industry

[p8ntbal4me]

OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.

OSHA is a secondary standard that is held up by ASTM primary standard.

Example: A ladder to get in and out of a trench DOES NOT carry an OSHA approval,.. OSHA DOES NOT approve anything!

What they do is say "it is approved for safe use if the ladder meets ASTM standards"

Nothing more than a liability.

Dont get the 2 confused,..... cost a guy I know $17,000 for a damn ladder!

~ P8nt

[p8ntbal4me]

the sport has only gotten to where it is due to most fields and manufacturers being safety concious.

but some got a little out of hand over the years things seem to be settling down.

i believe there is another standards group in paintball being organized as we speak.

also OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.

Bleh,.. im not picking on you Chrono,.. its just I live OSHA/MSHA guidelines for a living.
Take this with a grain of salt! (Beemer,.. this means you too!)

Think of the safety standards as a tier system based on 2 items: Products & Operational Guidelines.

The Product guidelines are based off of ASTM standards. All protective equipment in order to provide the function in which it was intended to pose MUST follow some kind of guideline. There can be just one,... but generally there are several.

Example: a mask probley carries one for each part/item that makes up the entire mask itself,.. but we will say that ALL masks only have 2 parts. A lense, and a face protector

The lense itself must meet an ASTM standard for what its intended use is,... in this case it would be "eye protection". There is a single ASTM standard for such classification,.. but its very broad. We call this a "Division". Divsions help manufactures break down what guidelines their products are going to fall under long before they ever make it to proto-type phase.
So while the lense itself falls under "eye protection", it doesnt say what it protects eyes from. For all we know by that broad guideline,.. it could be said that $20 Home Depot Liquid Splash safety glasses are of equal protection to a paintball player as a Paintball lense.

We all know thats not true.

So under that broad division we find breakdowns of different ASTM standards called "Chapters". Chapters refine the elements of what the product function is under a Divsion. So now here is where you find the ASTM standard break away the products that do and do not suite our needs for paintball players. The lense protects the eyes,.. we know that. Now we need to find the chapter that uses "eye protection - impact". Meaning that the separation of the shop glasses and the paintball lense is further defined.

The product keeps getting re-defined until you make it to the bottom and have reached a complete ASTM coded standard for your product.

The Operational Guidelines are exactly the same workings of Product ASTM standards,.. only you use multiple items that carry different standards to cover a much more broad range of safety. Think of it like this,... the mask is an ASTM certified piece of equipment in all aspects of things. If you were to take the goggles (the lense and the piece that holds the lense) away from the protective face layers,... you still have an ASTM product regardless of its separation. However,.. its not NOT recommended by the manufacturer that you use the goggles WITHOUT the mask pieces. This is NOT actually a "manufacturers suggestion", its an ASTM standard set by someone OTHER than the manufacturer, that says "your product MUST AT LEAST protect the user with the lense and housing unit for the lense (goggle)" The manufacturer knows that at the minimum, they must put out a lense and goggle that protects the user.

Now,.. insurance ties all that together. Fields cant operate with equipment that does not meet "insurance guidelines". Insurance companies get their guidelines from ASTM and some of their own in house guidelines based off of "claim loss" they gather. The thing to remember here guys is the insurance company is out to make money,.. they dont want you to get hurt! That means they have to pay! What they want is a constant method to be paid and keep customers,.. by customers,.... thats the field owners,.. not the players.

Back in 1992-96 you could see guys in the NPPL series like Miami Rage that played with ONLY goggles. Back then,.. this was allowed. The reason behind this no longer being allowed is the insurance companies saw a trend of claims due to facial impact on areas OTHER than the sections of face the goggles protected. So,.. what they did was told local field owners that in order to renew the policy,... they would have to follow a new guideline done "in house" that forced players to wear FULL facial protection. In the back ground, insurnace compaies like the IPPA gathered up all its data, arranged some meetings to have writers for safety guidelines to re-look at the ASTM standards,.. pleaded the case,.. and advised a change in product manufacturing.

The result is the standards we have for full face and eye protection on the fields.

The reason for the long winded example here fellas is to point out there ARE guidelines in full use,... but your topic sounds more like fields/manufacturers not following INSURANCE carrier guidelines over ASTM standards.

A roll of netting can be sent off a truck,.. brand new,.. unrolled,.. strung up,.. used for 5 minutes,.. poke a hole in it,..and guess what,.. it no longer meets an ASTM standard because it does not meet the safety guidelines in which it was manufactured for intended use. Rolls of netting are minimum of $300+,.. an expensive field owners cost. So what the field owner does it cuta small piece out of another small roll,.. zip tie it over the hole,... and call it a day. This still does not meet the ASTM standards guys,.. but what it DOES meet is the insurance guideline as "an impermiable layer of protective netting from one end to another that properly encloses the playing area". Does it violate insurance guidelines,.. yes. Because it fails the ASTM standard. Does it pass for the insurance companies gudelines,... yes. Because they see this as a "acceptable measure of correction". A company that insures a field knows,... you cant shut the place down for a single hole,... if the steps to correct the problem are met,... then it remains a reasonable clause to continue the policy.

OSHA works the same way with their fines. You can have your first penalty for $7,000. But the inspector looks at your company record and sees that you have had a zero incident record for the past 2 years. So within reason,.. they may say: "your fine is $7,000, but we see here that you have had zero incidents over 2 years Mr Field Owner. We also see that you make it mandatory to have all of your current staff as well as new staff trained in OSHA safety awarness. So what we are going to do is drop your $7,000 fine to $2,500 and require a 1 hour safety evaluation for you and the staff member that is at fault."

** Thats an example of OSHA on a construction job,... but related to Paintball **

Insurace companies are very simular,... the company that I work for wants me as an employee to set an example for everyone I work with. They want lower insuance rates, overhead costs, etc.

We can not get that without some kind of guideline in place. The rate of fire is a perfect example of a non-ASTM standard that is enforced by an insurance company. Insurance companies DO allow more than just semi auto guys,.... but field owners have to pay for that. Do you think they can afford that kind of premium? So what if jo blow can fun his gun in full auto all day. Hes still going to shoot that case of paint he came with and go home... only now hes not playing longer and having fun all day long with his buddies,... hes sitting on the sidelines, waiting for them to get done, going home early,.. or even WORSE,.. hes going home early and taking his 3 friends with him. Thats 4 customers that are not spending money at the field. Somewhere along the lines a study was done to compare the price of insurance premiums with sales and the semi auto only rule was the cheaper/safest way to go. Call it what you want,... but thats just how it is in the end,... a matter of a few bucks.

~ P8nt