Upgrading my knowledge on barrels

[dreadpirate]

Ok, so it's been a about 3 years since I played regularly, and I'm gradually getting back into the sport. I've noticed a few changes in what people seem to believe about barrels, and wouldlike to know if the theory behind their operation is at all solid.

3yrs ago:
The best barrels in terms of accuracy, were one-piece barrels that were a perfect match to paint size, all the way down the barrel, with a perfect, mirror-smooth polish, preferrably without anodizing. An example: a Lapco or Palmer's barrel matched to the size paint being shot. The ideal distance from breach to the beginning of the porting was considered to be 8-10", for best gas efficiency.

The next best barrel option, and the most flexible, was an interchangeable system, like the freak kit, which used either sleeves, or separately sized barrel backs, to match paint size, with a front tip large enough not to interfere with the ball, and meant only to bleed the air via porting. The barrel backs/inserts were rarely the idea 8-10", however.

Today:
The most popular barrels seem to be carbon fibre, with an interchangeable paint 'sizer', barely longer than the ball diameter, who's purpose seems to be to 'center' the ball in the barrel. As explained by a kid at my local shop, the ball travels down the barrel with an even cushion of air, therefor preventing random spin.

While this makes -some- sense in theory, since any contact with a barrel could theoretically induce spin, it sounds too much like the 90s, when everyone bought fancy venturi bolts, the idea being to apply air pressure evenly to the ball to prevent dimpling, and even out airflow around the ball as it travelled. It all turned out to be a bunch of bunk.

Am I wrong? Are stubby barrel sizers just a gimmick, or does that method really improve accuracy?

[secretweaponevan]

Ok, so it's been a about 3 years since I played regularly, and I'm gradually getting back into the sport. I've noticed a few changes in what people seem to believe about barrels, and wouldlike to know if the theory behind their operation is at all solid.

3yrs ago:
The best barrels in terms of accuracy, were one-piece barrels that were a perfect match to paint size, all the way down the barrel, with a perfect, mirror-smooth polish, preferrably without anodizing. An example: a Lapco or Palmer's barrel matched to the size paint being shot. The ideal distance from breach to the beginning of the porting was considered to be 8-10", for best gas efficiency.

The next best barrel option, and the most flexible, was an interchangeable system, like the freak kit, which used either sleeves, or separately sized barrel backs, to match paint size, with a front tip large enough not to interfere with the ball, and meant only to bleed the air via porting. The barrel backs/inserts were rarely the idea 8-10", however.

Today:
The most popular barrels seem to be carbon fibre, with an interchangeable paint 'sizer', barely longer than the ball diameter, who's purpose seems to be to 'center' the ball in the barrel. As explained by a kid at my local shop, the ball travels down the barrel with an even load of crap, therefor preventing random spin.

While this makes -some- sense in theory, since any contact with a barrel could theoretically induce spin, it sounds too much like the 90s, when everyone bought fancy venturi bolts, the idea being to apply air pressure evenly to the ball to prevent dimpling, and even out airflow around the ball as it travelled. It all turned out to be a bunch of bunk.

Am I wrong? Are stubby barrel sizers just a gimmick, or does that method really improve accuracy?

They'll prevent rollouts on closed-bolt markers, but that cushion of air sounds like... a load of crap. hehe. Just replaced "cushion of air" with "load of crap". Don't listen to kids at pro shops. They believe all of the marketing hype.

[Raven001]

My opinion based on nothing more than my own likes and dislikes. A one piece barrel in either .689 or .691, no more than 11 inches long with little porting, or just limited to two inches from the barrel end, is the best choice.

[Stayhuge]

What I have noticed in the 12 years that I have been playing, and the 15 different markers taht I have had, is that Mags are the most accurate, and I have found that my SS Freak kit has done wonders for me. However, I use different types of paint depending on the season and where I am playing, so versitile sizing is a must for me. I had a J&J Ceramic barrel on two if my markers, and I can swear by it. If you can match to that barrel, it is awesome, and cheap. Just my 2cents.

[warbeak2099]

Underbore underbore underbore. Cockerpunk has consistently shown that underboring results in better efficiency and no added breaks. I've been using my .684 Kaner no matter what and there's a significant difference.

In general, here's what I look for in a barrel:

-At least 8" of barrel before any porting
-14", best length for any position
-Long control bore, 6-8"
-Consistent and accurate bore size (unlike Freak inserts)

These new CF barrels with 1" inserts or backs are horribly inefficient. I would never ever shoot a barrel with a 1-2" control bore, that is plain stupid. If Redz Pepperstickz kits didn't have bores that were way too big, I'd be shooting one without a doubt. They have 8" backs, perfect! I'm currently looking into getting a newer style Kaner kit with the 7" backs. Way better than my Kaner with 5.75" backs.

And Stayhuge, I think you may be fooling yourself. Guns have little to no bearing on accuracy. A Mag is no more accurate than a DM/PM/EGO/etc and vice-versa.

[Stayhuge]

Could very well be the barrel. I think what I mean by accurate is that since Mags are so consistent, when I shoot 3-5 shots, they consistently hit the same place. None of my other markers have ever been that consistent. This is one of the 2 guns that I had a freak on, and those I found to be the best. So I guess Barrel makes a difference. Also, I agree with you on the Freaks insert inconsistency. I had the aluminum inserts initially, and the sizing was all messed up. I bought the Stainless ones, and They seem to be much better. They are a little heavier, but I think they make a big difference.

[dreadpirate]

Underbore underbore underbore. Cockerpunk has consistently shown that underboring results in better efficiency and no added breaks. I've been using my .684 Kaner no matter what and there's a significant difference.

In general, here's what I look for in a barrel:

-At least 8" of barrel before any porting
-14", best length for any position
-Long control bore, 6-8"
-Consistent and accurate bore size (unlike Freak inserts)

These new CF barrels with 1" inserts or backs are horribly inefficient. I would never ever shoot a barrel with a 1-2" control bore, that is plain stupid. If Redz Pepperstickz kits didn't have bores that were way too big, I'd be shooting one without a doubt. They have 8" backs, perfect! I'm currently looking into getting a newer style Kaner kit with the 7" backs. Way better than my Kaner with 5.75" backs.

And Stayhuge, I think you may be fooling yourself. Guns have little to no bearing on accuracy. A Mag is no more accurate than a DM/PM/EGO/etc and vice-versa.

I agree with most of what you're saying: 8" before any porting, at least 8" of control bore, is generally what I have looked for in the past, though manufacturers do not seem to like conforming to that standard. Generally speaking, I look for barrels with 8" of control bore before the porting, and a minimum amount of porting, meant only to bleed off the excess air smoothly. I use a 12" LAPCO big shot or autospirit for anything that matches them well, and bring my SS Freak kit as back up in case the paint is too small or too big.

Underboring sounds interesting... wouldn't it cause more risk of barrel breaks? Assuming the paint is tough enough, I would imagine it squeeze the ball back into a round shape, since I've noticed the paint at my local field tends to only contact the barrel in two spots, even when it's a fairly tight fit... perhaps I ought to try using my autospirit instead of the bigshot sometime.

[cockerpunk]

nope-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D39VpR7j1iE&feature=channel_page

[dreadpirate]

Could very well be the barrel. I think what I mean by accurate is that since Mags are so consistent, when I shoot 3-5 shots, they consistently hit the same place. None of my other markers have ever been that consistent. This is one of the 2 guns that I had a freak on, and those I found to be the best. So I guess Barrel makes a difference. Also, I agree with you on the Freaks insert inconsistency. I had the aluminum inserts initially, and the sizing was all messed up. I bought the Stainless ones, and They seem to be much better. They are a little heavier, but I think they make a big difference.

I've noticed on paintball forums, accuracy and consistency are often confused. In real firearms, the technical definitian for accuracy is usually the ability to center a shot grouping around the point being aimed at. Consistency is the ability of the gun/shooter to place shots in the same place, regardless of whether or not they strike the point aimed at.

A good way to determine how a gun needs adjusting is to fire a bunch of shots from the prone position (the steadiest position available), and then analyze you grouping. Remember to fire slowly, and aim each individual shot.

If your grouping size is large, in a dispersed 'cloud' around the bullseye, but centered over the bullseye, your accuracy is good, but your shot consistency is bad. Buy a better barrel. If your grouping size is small, but always in the same spot, your consistency is good, but your accuracy is bad. Fix your aiming technique first, then, if you are using a sight, and still missing the bullseye, adjust the sight to put your grouping on the bullseye. If, after getting a better barrel, you are drawing a line through the bullseye, your velocity is inconsistent, causing your shots to have poor consistency. Upgrade to HPA/N2 if you are using a CO2 gun, and buy a better regulator. If a better reg. still does not fix your velocity, it's the gun's fault, either live with it, or get a better gun.

Edit: I should add, of course, that regs do have a break-in period. Don't throw away your gun just because it isn't consistent right away, let the reg settle in for a few cases of paint or so.

[stoffa15]

I 've been reading all these posts and I'm not sure we all know whats important in being accurate.

most important
1. A clean marker.
Dirt,oil,grease and water affect the accuarcy of a paintball. a clean marker shoots alot straighter
2 Good paint.
your shooting a liquid filled gel capsil at 300 fps. Irregularities in the paint will make it do some funny things.Inspect your paint!!!!!!! Garbage in Garbage out!!!!!
3 A good regulator
regulators aren't too expensive, if you chrono your marker and your velocity is +- more than 10 your going to be high or low of your target. consistency goes a long way.

4 practice
know your marker. learn how the balls arch in flight.

5 be patient.
how many people do you see come to the field each week with something new on their marker???? how can you become comfortable with your marker if you keep changing it up every time you play

6 the barrel
underboring has been proven to be more air efficient then overboring. It doesn't really matter how much you spend on a barrel or barrel kit.you just need a smooth bore barrel that isn't ported so much it looks like swiss cheese.

7 your choice of marker.
enough said you already know that quality shoots straight

[drg]

I've noticed on paintball forums, accuracy and consistency are often confused. In real firearms, the technical definitian for accuracy is usually the ability to center a shot grouping around the point being aimed at. Consistency is the ability of the gun/shooter to place shots in the same place, regardless of whether or not they strike the point aimed at.

A good way to determine how a gun needs adjusting is to fire a bunch of shots from the prone position (the steadiest position available), and then analyze you grouping. Remember to fire slowly, and aim each individual shot.

If your grouping size is large, in a dispersed 'cloud' around the bullseye, but centered over the bullseye, your accuracy is good, but your shot consistency is bad. Buy a better barrel. If your grouping size is small, but always in the same spot, your consistency is good, but your accuracy is bad. Fix your aiming technique first, then, if you are using a sight, and still missing the bullseye, adjust the sight to put your grouping on the bullseye. If, after getting a better barrel, you are drawing a line through the bullseye, your velocity is inconsistent, causing your shots to have poor consistency. Upgrade to HPA/N2 if you are using a CO2 gun, and buy a better regulator. If a better reg. still does not fix your velocity, it's the gun's fault, either live with it, or get a better gun.

Edit: I should add, of course, that regs do have a break-in period. Don't throw away your gun just because it isn't consistent right away, let the reg settle in for a few cases of paint or so.

There's a reason for this. Paintball (the projectile) precision is relatively low, so judging actual accuracy is difficult and primarily dependent on the paintballs themselves. Most quality barrels are at a point where they can hold the accuracy equation to a standard, so the real variation to look at that we CAN control significantly is the consistency of the shot (velocity). This is also the reason why short-back barrel kits see such wide use; in practice they don't have an effect on accuracy.

In paintball to a large degree, accuracy IS consistency. Even with pumps and one-shot kills, you want the gun consistent with the last ball shot out of it.

Generally speaking, with regard to barrels:

Accuracy - Depends on manufacturing quality, which encompasses barrel finish and straightness. Most quality barrels are comparable in accuracy. Paint quality is the major determining factor.

Consistency - Depends on bore sizing (underboring for best consistency). Quality of regulation figures in here, as does gun quality and state of tune and maintenance.

Efficiency - Depends on control bore length, with the old ~10" figure still considered optimal. Most barrels do not have this much unported length, but manufacturers have moved to longer control bores. Marker operation obviously figures in here.

Sound signature - Depends on porting pattern and length. Gun operation of course figures in here as well.

Ergonomics - Mostly personal preferences by definition, has to do with barrel design, length, materials, etc. Difficult to quantify these things; generally whatever you like better is the correct choice.

[cockerpunk]

in all my testing of barrels - i say forget the barrel.

get a decent .685 one piece, and buy NICE paint. thats the best way to improve accuracy if you even can at all.

[dreadpirate]

in all my testing of barrels - i say forget the barrel.

get a decent .685 one piece, and buy NICE paint. thats the best way to improve accuracy if you even can at all.

I tend to disregard paint, simply because the majority of fields I play at (CT, MI, and IL so far) don't allow BYOP anyway, and usually only have one brand to choose from. It seems the days are gone when I could go to my local field and have my choice between 'junky', 'ok', and marbelizer. Now it's "X field's custom paint, with [insert color here] fill, so you can't shoot it anywhere else!" Although I noticed one of the nearby fields just started allowing BYOP for the speedball field only. They still make me use their paint if I want to play in the woods, which with very few speedballers around most weekends, means I'm buying their paint anyway.

But I agree, in situations where I can bring my own paint, which has not happened for me since 2000, I go out and get the highest quality, small bore paint possible, and use my .685 microshot barrel... which has yet to be used since I purchased it.

As far as consistency, I'm still waiting for a gun to come out with a built-in chrono on the barrel that automatically adjusts input pressure to maintain velocity at a user-set value.

I suppose all of this begs the next question: what are good, high-quality paintballs these days? The last time I bothered to look, marbelizer was about the only high-quality paint around.

[gunangel]

yup underboring doesn't break any more balls, if they are going to break they will break no matter what size you use (we had a bad batch of nelsons, with a 695 the balls were still breaking, even with a 688 it was still breaking roughly in the same spot).

i would say getting one piece, non-ported, bores would be the the most accurate you can get barrel wise other than using an apex (which if you match it right will give you an almost linear shot). other than that it is getting a really broken in consistent regulator. Some people quip about the material etc, but that's still something that's still up in the air.

nelson usually makes decent paint, chances of them breaking in the marker are low, but chances of them breaking on people easily is also slightly low.

the self adjusting chronoing barrel idea has merit...that may be a fun project :) two sets of eyes, a board to control the dwell in .1ms increments depending on the chrono calculated from the time it takes to pass each eye. setting parameters may be difficult because ball breaks would have to be taken into consideration...this could also prove the acceleration theory as well...

[drg]

As far as consistency, I'm still waiting for a gun to come out with a built-in chrono on the barrel that automatically adjusts input pressure to maintain velocity at a user-set value.

While this sounds good in theory, this idea is actually a non-starter. Why? All guns are designed to shoot at a consistent velocity as it is. Variations in paintballs and the gun's operation result in velocity fluctuations; you cannot account for this by varying regulator pressure. A given paintball's velocity is not related to the velocity of the next paintball in any way in normal, typical paintgun operation, so you will actually introduce an unwanted variable into the velocity equation.

For active compensation to actually work, you need to be monitoring a variable that actually has an effect on the velocity of the paintball such as input pressure or battery voltage in the case of mQ valved guns, then compensate with another variable, such as dwell. Of course it will only work if the measured variable is undergoing a predictable change.

I suppose all of this begs the next question: what are good, high-quality paintballs these days? The last time I bothered to look, marbelizer was about the only high-quality paint around.

RPS Ultra Evil, Nelson Anarchy, Empire Inertia, Draxxus Hellfire ... other people will chime in