You know what I love about good old fashioned Woodsball....

[drg]

Really? That isn't how I remember speedball's origins. I recall a game format born out in SoCal that was intended to create "more excitement" for players and faster turnarounds for field owners. The format spread and became "the" way to put paintball on TV. Some of the earliest broadcast stuff was done on speedball fields. Later, tourneys started including "spectator tapelines" which typically featured foliage free viewing and staggered bunkers. Spectator tapelines became entire fields...and gradually woodsball tourneys went away all together.

It may not be speedball's very origins, but it quickly was recognized as a benefit of the format and the format was developed to take advantage of that.

The first televised tournaments were in the woods, speedball did not become the standard competitive format until the late 90s, several years after televised paintball began. Speedball was adopted for competition as a means to create an even playing field for both teams, which is often impossible with natural cover. This would allow skill, not circumstance, to win out in the end.

I'm curious, how does a speeballer playing on a SupAir field, Xball field, or whatever...learn how to spend 25 minutes crawling 12 feet through a weed patch to put themselves into position to knock out a critical opponent?

The real heart of that skill is understanding sightlines and shooting lanes so that you can crawl unseen and/or unhit. You learn that faster in speedball than in woodsball where you may not be punished for messing a crawl up. The sneaking around component is mostly natural instinct that even the newest players grasp almost immediately.

Experience doesn't teach you to to apply stealth; stealth and sneaking is the starting point for all players. Knowing when to discard stealth for efficacy is the learned skill. As is field awareness, which is a learned skill and also a universal skill to all types of paintball.

[JaKaL]

dude, you totally said "efficacy" on a paintball forum.

that rules.

[txaggie08]

I've always loathed the sneak and crawl woodsball game. If I wanted to go crawl through fireants and weeds, or sit in a bush for thirty minutes, I wouldn't be wearing a pb mask to do it!

I want to play, and that play has NEVER appealed to me. Not 12 years ago when I stepped on the first field, not last week when I reffed for an hour with some local guys.


Damian- If it had been my field, the ref that ran that game would have gotten eaten alive once I got him alone. You don't put little ones in that position clueless. You either find them someone who wont demolish them, or you put a ref on them to help them.

I've spent my time with groups literally running bunker to bunker with kids to keep an eye on them and make sure that garbage didn't happen. They're gonna get shot, but you don't dump them in over there heads like that....

[GoatBoy]

I'm curious, how does a speeballer playing on a SupAir field, Xball field, or whatever...learn how to spend 25 minutes crawling 12 feet through a weed patch to put themselves into position to knock out a critical opponent?

Hate to pick on this... but if you play like this, you are very nearly the functional equivalent of the kid who volunteers at every game to "stay behind and guard the flag". He does literally NOTHING for his team, spending time on stuff like using his tactical vacuum cleaner to pick up his potato chip crumbs.

1. Time limits

Games typically have time limits, like 15 minutes. Even if they're longer, say 20-30 minute games, they're typically decided after 15 minutes anyways. Regardless, I'm assuming to make up for the 10 minute differential, you crawled undetected all the way back to the staging area after the game was already over as a demonstration of just how devastating the technique of not shooting at people or communicating with your team for the majority of a game really is. Which leads to...

2. Paintball is a team game

Far be it for you to support your teammates by calling out positions, covering their movements, or eliminating other players. Instead, you're off in the bushes hoping for some "critical" elimination. For the duration of the time that you're doing this, you're not interacting with your own team. You're not even interacting with the opposing team. You're interacting with... bushes.

That's just bad paintball right there.

3. Trading players

Peeling off one of your players and making him useless while he chases the off chance that he might take out a "critical" player really seems to only make sense in limited scenarios.

Trading a knight for a knight is kind of a wash.

Trading a pawn for a knight, on the other hand, is a better deal.

If it turns out that your effectiveness on the field is so bad that it makes such a deal attractive, maybe you should just increase your skillset beyond that of a pawn.

4. Big stealth vs. little stealth

In my experience, the little stealth moves -- short distance blind spot moves -- yield way more eliminations than long, overarching "I crawed 25 minutes through a cow pasture" type moves. And that's what your team needs. It needs your opponents removed from the field, right here, right now, not 25 minutes from now.


If you play this way, you'd better have more "critical" players on your team to make up for such wasteful tactics.

[tasker89]

drg, GoatBoy and txaggie08 - I have to ask each of you a few questions:

1) How old are you and how long have you been playing?
2) Did you ever play high level 15 man or 10 man woodsball tourneys? (Lively series or early NPPL)

I ask because I'd like to have a frame of reference for this discussion. In the interest of full disclosure: I am 33. I started following paintball at the age of 12 and started playing at 15. By 17 I was playing in and reffing tournament paintball. I played 10 man NPPL ball on a pro-team from 1993-1997. I've played regional airball and speedball tourneys on and off over the last decade...now I play for fun only.

So here's the thing...I don't need lessons on line of sight, sweet spotting, shooting lanes, the team aspect of the sport, etc. I've been there and done that. When I asked my question about crawling...I'm not talking about slipping on some ghillie suit and slinging up a Milsim Tippman so I can lay like a landmine 30 feet from a flag station. I am talking about the patient two man crawling game that was absolutely crucial to winning 10 man games. That skill was learned in woodsball open games first...and honed later.

The first televised tournaments were in the woods, speedball did not become the standard competitive format until the late 90s, several years after televised paintball began.

I am aware of this fact...which is why I wrote "some of the earliest."

Speedball was adopted for competition as a means to create an even playing field for both teams, which is often impossible with natural cover. This would allow skill, not circumstance, to win out in the end.

Not really. Speedball was adopted for competition because it was "spectator friendly." The idea of mirrored playing fields wasn't even part of Speedball when it first started. Further, good teams in the early NPPL and the Lively days could win games regardless of which side of the field they got. Walking a field, reading that field and gameplanning that field was a skill....games were not won and lost based on a coinflip or bracket placement.

Hate to pick on this... but if you play like this, you are very nearly the functional equivalent of the kid who volunteers at every game to "stay behind and guard the flag". He does literally NOTHING for his team, spending time on stuff like using his tactical vacuum cleaner to pick up his potato chip crumbs.

No...you really don't...seeing as how you've taken the time to carefully insert any number of jokes assuming things about my skill level and willingness to crawl in cow dung in addition to taking the time to carefully point out for me (the apparent rube) prima facia elements of the game like....ummm....time limits and teh teamworkz.

[Beemer]

^^^^^ word. You musta played for that team Swarm that we were always trying to spank.

Though I do agree those days are long gone and a lost art. Good to see ya around.


edit to add...........I just noticed you started right after we went from 15 man to 10 man.
Music city open and the Masters.......those were the days.

[txaggie08]

drg, GoatBoy and txaggie08 - I have to ask each of you a few questions:

1) How old are you and how long have you been playing?
2) Did you ever play high level 15 man or 10 man woodsball tourneys? (Lively series or early NPPL)

1)23, and I think this will make it 13 or 14 years(have to do my math cause it was the year before dad died) since I started playing.
2) No. I've never played tournament ball period. I was not one of the privileged few who got the $$ to play when I was that age, and paintball died out in any serious,organized, form around here well before I got to a point I was earning my own.

I started out playing with some of the original Lost boys, and spent time on the field and around guys who played tourney paintball in that era.

Now that I'm older, I hate the mentality of the tourney ballers as much as I hate the "creep and crawl" crowd in the woods. I like a good, old fashioned, gun battle. I want to start a game, and spend that game moving around, not sitting or sneaking, and having a good time in a paintball match. Cheating drives me crazy, and I find that the "hardcore" woodsballers are as guilty, if not more guilty, than the tourney kids.

That mentality is why I left airsoft. I'm not going to kit out in hot gear to go sit in a bush for twenty minutes, or creep around woods for the same length of time for a two second gun battle.


Some of this is why I went back to pump. No CYA ability in pump, you gotta get aggressive or get shot by the faster shooters

[drg]

20-21 years since i first played, my memory is a little hazy at this point. Do I smell an appeal to authority fallacy?

Regardless, the simple truth is that taking 25 minutes to crawl 12 feet is never going to be the best course of action in the game of paintball. You have kind of sprayed your argument out in several directions by talking about this ridiculously plodding kind of maneuver on one hand, then speaking of very, very bog standard overwatch tactics on the other hand.

Neither is a lamentable "lost skill" in the modern era of paintball, and it's questionable that the former is really a skill at all.

[tasker89]

I was not one of the privileged few who got the $$ to play when I was that age,

I worked three jobs to pay my way. Only the very best pro-teams in the early 90's had the kind of money to cover all expenses for their guys. We had plenty of sponsors...but unless you were playing on Sunday in the money rounds...you were still coming out behind.

I like a good, old fashioned, gun battle.

Actually, so do I...but I also enjoy changing things up now and again. My heart has always been in the competitive woodsball game...so that is the style I typically play....crawling sometimes comes with the territory.

Cheating drives me crazy, and I find that the "hardcore" woodsballers are as guilty, if not more guilty, than the tourney kids.

You find this at every level in paintball...now that I only play for fun, I try to blow that stuff off.

Some of this is why I went back to pump. No CYA ability in pump, you gotta get aggressive or get shot by the faster shooters

I was raised on pump...and I still play it. In fact, I probably have more fun playing pump than anything else.

[Watcher]

What I love about good old fashion woodsball is that it brings together army-vets, army-vet-wanna-be's, speedballers, pumpers, rec-ballers, tourney players, newbies, and retro-players alike.

But it does have it's bad side, like having teammates telling you to move up and when you do they think you are the enemy and shoot you in the back

[GoatBoy]

No...you really don't...seeing as how you've taken the time to carefully insert any number of jokes assuming things about my skill level and willingness to crawl in cow dung in addition to taking the time to carefully point out for me (the apparent rube) prima facia elements of the game like....ummm....time limits and teh teamworkz.

[tasker89]

20-21 years since i first played, my memory is a little hazy at this point. Do I smell an appeal to authority fallacy?

The only thing that smells in this thread is your thinly veiled condescension. You can reduce the dialogue in this thread into a sophomoric discussion of fallacious logic if you wish...but frankly I've had enough of that sort of thing to last me for quite some time.

So, in the interest of moving this forward, I'll start by pointing out that you only partially answered my questions drg. I didn't disclose information about myself to establish my authority, I did it as a means to put my experience and understanding of paintball in context. I was hoping that you would do the same. I guess I am just thick, but I don't understand how someone who has been playing since 1988 or 89 appears to have no recollection of how heavily crawling was relied upon in 15 and 10 man woodsball. I first learned how to crawl in open play. Later, I learned how to crawl with backup.

Regardless, the simple truth is that taking 25 minutes to crawl 12 feet is never going to be the best course of action in the game of paintball.

On this you are flat wrong. On some fields and in some games, the above course of action may have been absolutely necessary. Sometimes the crawl was accomplished by using LOS, sometimes you had to move out from cover into weeds. You might need to spend that 25 minutes getting into position for the last 5 minute rush. Maybe you shot from the weeds, maybe you stood up and took out a player that was in a position to shut down a rush, maybe you popped up and bunkered someone right in front of you. Regardless, it happened...all the time. The best pro teams in the late 80's and early 90's had guys that could crawl right up on you in the right circumstances...and they did.

Neither is a lamentable "lost skill" in the modern era of paintball, and it's questionable that the former is really a skill at all.

Typically, we don't lament the loss of something that we either don't care about or haven't invested ourselves in.

Moving on...

I didn't start this thread to create a speedball vs. woodsball argument...I only created it to state that I had FUN playing some old school woodsball. I didn't say speedballers aren't skilled, I didn't say speedballers couldn't play woodsball (and vice versa). However...there are "skills" developed in each form of paintball that do not transfer over...and since speedball is, by and large, the competitive format du jour, some of the skills valuable in competitive woodsball aren't seeing much use.

[tasker89]

Thanks for kindly pointing out my spelling mistake. I wasn't talking about prima facie evidence of a fact. I used the phrase in the Latin sense. (on its face or at first glance...meaning...obvious).

Are you trying to actually form an argument by asking people how long they've been playing? Something along the lines of, "You might not remember, but back when NPPL 10 and 15 man games had a time limit of 15-20 minutes, players were able to crawl for 25 minutes and then travel back in time by 5-10 minutes to change the outcome of a game"?

Nope. I am trying to understand what your experience is and how long you have been around the game so I can present any argument I do make in the proper context. 15 man games were never 20 minutes. I never played 15 man...but I played on a team that started in 15 man. Those games were played on very large fields and typically had an hour time limit or more. (did some digging, Lively Series rules were 15 players, 45 minutes on fields of perhaps 4-6 acres.) IIRC, when the NPPL was formed in 1993, 10 man games were 30 minutes.

So the question again is...did you ever play that kind of ball? If you did...then you should know exactly what I am talking about.

[drg]

So, in the interest of moving this forward, I'll start by pointing out that you only partially answered my questions drg. I didn't disclose information about myself to establish my authority, I did it as a means to put my experience and understanding of paintball in context. I was hoping that you would do the same. I guess I am just thick, but I don't understand how someone who has been playing since 1988 or 89 appears to have no recollection of how heavily crawling was relied upon in 15 and 10 man woodsball. I first learned how to crawl in open play. Later, I learned how to crawl with backup.

I have never insinuated that is was not used or was ineffective, my point is that it is not exclusive to woodsball, and indeed sees plenty of use in other formats.

On this you are flat wrong. On some fields and in some games, the above course of action may have been absolutely necessary. Sometimes the crawl was accomplished by using LOS, sometimes you had to move out from cover into weeds. You might need to spend that 25 minutes getting into position for the last 5 minute rush. Maybe you shot from the weeds, maybe you stood up and took out a player that was in a position to shut down a rush, maybe you popped up and bunkered someone right in front of you. Regardless, it happened...all the time. The best pro teams in the late 80's and early 90's had guys that could crawl right up on you in the right circumstances...and they did.

By this, what is clear is you have misrepresented the point you are trying to make. Your wording indicated crawling -- and nothing but crawling -- for 25 minutes, to cover 12 feet. What you are referring to is operating from a prone position, not simply crawling ... this obviously has its uses but it is again not limited to the woods. I don't see how anyone who has played any amount of speedball can say that crawling and operating from tight or prone positions are unused skills. Just about every speedball field has a snake structure to ensure this.

I didn't start this thread to create a speedball vs. woodsball argument...I only created it to state that I had FUN playing some old school woodsball. I didn't say speedballers aren't skilled, I didn't say speedballers couldn't play woodsball (and vice versa). However...there are "skills" developed in each form of paintball that do not transfer over...and since speedball is, by and large, the competitive format du jour, some of the skills valuable in competitive woodsball aren't seeing much use.

I don't think there are any skills that do not transfer over between the formats of paintball (if one is a smart player), and I think that speedball usually develops skills more and more quickly than woodsball.

The most significant difference I see between speedball and woodsball is that in woodsball you have the option to stay away from the action and take it easy. But that's not a skill.

[tasker89]

1st mention:

I had fun long-balling and crawling...and never once felt out classed.

2nd mention:

But skills like crawling (especially playing the two man game...crawler in front of a loud and obnoxious cover-man),

3rd mention:

learn how to spend 25 minutes crawling 12 feet through a weed patch to put themselves into position to knock out a critical opponent?

The 2nd mention should serve as a context clue that I was referring to the two man form of crawling at bare minimum.

What you are referring to is operating from a prone position, not simply crawling ... this obviously has its uses but it is again not limited to the woods. I don't see how anyone who has played any amount of speedball can say that crawling and operating from tight or prone positions are unused skills. Just about every speedball field has a snake structure to ensure this.

I agree, but working the snake is not the same thing as crawling weeds. One is about timing, the other is about patience. One is done with eyes open on a field with precisely known quantities, the other is done nearly blind. Finally, I'm not referring to "operating from the prone", I am talking about "crawling." With 20 years in paintball...the word (and all of the paintball associated images the term evokes) should be in your vernacular. This is why I asked you to share some of your background in the game...you are either being deliberately obtuse or you don't get the shorthand. I am trying to suss that out.