Opinion on rules (trigger pull)

[Lohman446]

I have often enough complained about the lack of a pump league that has any pull or for that matter any significant membership. I have also complained about the scoring format often enough.

I have decided that I have whined long enough. While I know that a pump league will never have the popularity of the PSP or NPPL or whatever is out there now I also know that there are poeple who want something else.

A lot of thought in the middle of the night led me to the conclusion that this cannot be limited to just pump players - that a mechanical division fits in to what the vision is - a league less about the $$ and more about the fun - what in my historically clouded vision paintball used to be....

Which brings us into the whole "cheating" with mechanicals deal.

So I ask AO a couple questions in regards to this.

How do you effectively write a rule that keeps it fair and does not exclude every RT system out there? What are your thoughts and ideas? It is my intent to start with addressing this by adding a trigger pull weight requirement - easily verified and tested on the spot. However, I need to address RT - thoughts?

[BigEvil]

Lohman,

This is a tough one. There would need to be specific rules and inspection procedures in place to accomodate RT mags.

However, I find that stock configured gun have very little reactivity. Most of it we see is caused by user modification or high input pressure.

[Lohman446]

Lohman,

This is a tough one. There would need to be specific rules and inspection procedures in place to accomodate RT mags.

However, I find that stock configured gun have very little reactivity. Most of it we see is caused by user modification or high input pressure.

I agree. The intent is not to ban them. The intent is to allow them. However, the intent is to also ensure that we do not have people tinkering in such a way as to gain a technological advantage. I don't want this to be "oh look, a mechanical league, we can rule there because of no electros". So how does one test, how does one allow, and how does one differentiate.

[BigEvil]

I agree. The intent is not to ban them. The intent is to allow them. However, the intent is to also ensure that we do not have people tinkering in such a way as to gain a technological advantage. I don't want this to be "oh look, a mechanical league, we can rule there because of no electros". So how does one test, how does one allow, and how does one differentiate.

Probably have to inspect each one, (hopefully not to the point where they are being disasembled and on/off pin's measured). One-shot, one-pull over the chrono. No adjustable tanks.

Since the intent of a mech league would stress skill over firepower, how about limiting hoppers to 12v revys? If a hopper can only feed 12bps it really doesnt matter how fast a gun can shoot.

[Lohman446]

Probably have to inspect each one, (hopefully not to the point where they are being disasembled and on/off pin's measured). One-shot, one-pull over the chrono. No adjustable tanks.

Since the intent of a mech league would stress skill over firepower, how about limiting hoppers to 12v revys? If a hopper can only feed 12bps it really doesnt matter how fast a gun can shoot.

I agree with this - though I am not dead certain of how to address this. The intent is not to create an era of frustration on chopped balls - to me the Halo helped address this by forcing the balls down into the chamber better, not just adding speed. In all honesty its my intent to draft some rough proposals on this, form a governing committee to vote on rules as proposed / change / govern, collect the minimal capital to get it off the ground (though I expect I am going to end up financing this), incorporate it to protect the few investors, and have it off and running with an inaugaral event by next year - hopefully in the spring. However, I am going to end up using hte message boards to help give me some ideas so that the proposals can be voted up or down, or included with minimal changes.

Minimal capital = under $2000 - of which I intend to contribute just shy of 50%. The intent here is to keep the governing members also those with a finanical interest. THe understanding is that there is no short term profit outlook. The stated intent of this is going to be to provide a venue for those who want to be away from what paintball is now. I'll work on the governing rules sepereatly though, I figured I would just throw this info out now

[Spider-TW]

Probably have to inspect each one, (hopefully not to the point where they are being disasembled and on/off pin's measured). One-shot, one-pull over the chrono. No adjustable tanks.

You would also have to check the output on tanks, for the ones that can be shimmed. If you limit the output to around 850, it's hard to make a controllable RT. Any marker that will RT at that pressure should be easier to pick out in the chronograph area.

You would only have to check the tanks for players that will be using RT markers. You could do that when/if you make checks for hydro dates. You could give the tank an additional token,strap, or whatever you use to mark the inspection. But then your field refs would have to check for it too.

[rx2]

Well, I am assuming that, with a trigger-weight requirement, most pneumatically-assisted frames would be out. That being the case, it would probably make it a lot easier to spot people cheating with RTs. I have never really seen anyone who could pull more than 9bps, on a mech frame, consistently, or for any appreciable duration. Most people are probably closer to 7. That being as such, it would seem that, if someone were to go into full-blown RT firing, it would be pretty obvious. Of course, this would rely on well-placed refs to spot. However, I would think that, with real penalties, this would dissuade most people from trying to get away with it. Couple this with the previously suggested checks on tank output, and trigger-pull at the chrono, and I think that the problem would be very minor. That is, as long as the refs know exactly what to look for, and how to sweet-spot the trigger they are checking.

[BigEvil]

Output gauges on the asa could also be a requirement. This way a ref could spot check it.

[Lohman446]

Well, I am assuming that, with a trigger-weight requirement, most pneumatically-assisted frames would be out. That being the case, it would probably make it a lot easier to spot people cheating with RTs. I have never really seen anyone who could pull more than 9bps, on a mech frame, consistently, or for any appreciable duration. Most people are probably closer to 7. That being as such, it would seem that, if someone were to go into full-blown RT firing, it would be pretty obvious. Of course, this would rely on well-placed refs to spot. However, I would think that, with real penalties, this would dissuade most people from trying to get away with it. Couple this with the previously suggested checks on tank output, and trigger-pull at the chrono, and I think that the problem would be very minor. That is, as long as the refs know exactly what to look for, and how to sweet-spot the trigger they are checking.

Hmmm... I am in the middle of asking a question on reffing - in my head, that would probably make this less likely than at your normal field. I will get that queation up here or tonight and you will understand

[AGDlover]

one shot one pull simple enough but as for "bounce" and "sweet spotting" and over chargeing for more mechanical bounce... well I believe over chargeing would have to be a simple rule HP guns no more than 850 psi to help controle excessive sweet spotting. And I know you can still run a mag at 850 and still get it to rip out 15+ with limited tinkering so there would have to be be a bps limit and a true offical gun tech for the turny not refs trying to shoot your mech because they dont know why its shooting faster than their DM9.

my 2cents

[Spider-TW]

Output gauges on the asa could also be a requirement. This way a ref could spot check it.

Good one.

[Loguzzzzzz]

Not sure this is completely on topic but here goes.

When we play in SoCal and mix pump with Semi (electro or mech) we usually give the pump guys unlimited paint while the semi guys get one hopper. This is done to try and keep the semi guys from over shooting. I can see this as a rule for tournement play.

This is what we have come up with to try and even up the playing field. Seems to work well for us.

Just my $0.02

[Lohman446]

Not sure this is completely on topic but here goes.

When we play in SoCal and mix pump with Semi (electro or mech) we usually give the pump guys unlimited paint while the semi guys get one hopper. This is done to try and keep the semi guys from over shooting. I can see this as a rule for tournement play.

This is what we have come up with to try and even up the playing field. Seems to work well for us.

Just my $0.02

Thank you, I am saving that for later. While it was my intention to keep the two divisions seperate it was also my intention to have an "ultimate champion" - where the winning pump team played against the winning mech team. This is intended as a pride thing only and this idea definetly needs to float in mind.

Expect a lot of questions, and disjointed thinking and asking here - at this point, while I know what I want, I am throwing ideas to see what sticks to get there.

[Watcher]

I'd agree in trying to limit the hopper like they do in SPPL. However, this would give players with Tippmanns with Cyclones, should they choose to use them, a feed-speed advantage.

Would only allowing a RTing marker to have a single trigger change anything?


Its a shame because my RT can't take ULTs so if I ever want to compete it is out of the question.
And I'd rather not get it drilled out.


And to answer some earlier PSI comments, I am able to get my RT Pro above 20cps with a lvl7 bolt from a 850psi preset output Crossfire tank, stock configuration, no mods.
Limiting pressure will do nothing...