Newerish Guns - Ramping/Trigger Bounce

[kopfjaeger]

I run into this every time I play recball. Its just the culture of of the douchebaggery that have taken over the sport. It seems like this is the attitude of at least half of the players, the F everybody attitude. I am quick to blame it on teenagers, but I see adults doing it as well.

I have scaled back my play and usually only play private games as it is absolutely no fun to play recball against a-hole tournament players. Our private games have the respect and dignity that is missing from most of paintball.

These days, there is no separation of competetive ballers from people out to just have a good time. I have been playing since the 80's. We used to shake hands after a good game or a good shot. Tournament players used to give tips to each other on improving their game. Now its all about kicking each others butt if you don't like 20 shots from head to toe. I have tried to start mech only games, but field owners generally don't care. They just want high numbers of people and $.

In the last few years, I have seen the quality of refs drop drastically. They are no longer refs, only safety monitors. Occasionally there is a good one , but they are few and far between.
This is the attitude in the SoCAl paintball scene. I am stuck playing only private or AO games.

[snoopay700]

Yeah I have played on several fields this year and it just seems to be happening almost everywhere, with woosballers and speedballers. It sucks to, the game just isn't the same as it used to be.

That's another fallacy i believe. Granted it's not like when paintball first started, but that's because it wasn't as popular, as it got more and more popular more people started playing, which upped the chances of there being huge jerks playing. The sport has always had them, it's just there are more of them now than when paintball started since there are more players now.

[athomas]

Its not woodsballers vs speedballers. The bad sportsman mentality happens on both the speedball field and on the woodsball field. Its established players vs new players. Unfortunately, there are some established players that think they are too good to be shot out by a new or rental player. They will do what ever it takes to stay in the game. When it comes to bonus balling the other players, they blame it on the speed of their equipment. In reality, they just haven't got the quick recognition skills to know if a player is out or not. They are "wanna be" superstars. They can only feel good about themselves by beating other players with less experience. And that is because they take a beating if they step on a competitive field against a tournament team. They will never really get any better though, because they are afraid to get hit and to be beaten. The first thing a good player learns, is not to be afraid to be taken out of a game. Once you get over that hurdle, you become a dangerous (in a good way) player on the field.

[[NA]WARLORD]

So, how did the management respond? I'm kind of curious.

I am wondering this too, why wasn't the teams more evenly divided by the firepower ? Isn't that part of the managements job ? It was when I was a ref.......

[athomas]

A good ref or field manager would always try to keep the teams evenly matched. Its good for business in two ways. One, the games last longer so everyone gets more playing time and more out of the experience. Two, generally speaking, if you are in the game longer you shoot more paint. You always want your clients going away happy and spreading the word on their great experience at your facility.

As a veteran player, I always made it a point to join the weakest team in open walk-on days. I also set my gun to semi and was very careful not to go crazy on the trigger. I would try for single shot kills. That was my goal when playing less experienced players, movement over firepower.

[that one guy]

I was playing pump ( woodsball ) and tried to run up on someone, and got hit. While sitting there with my hands up I got shot about a dozen times in the head/gun/arms/everywhere else. the ref actually stepped in between me and the other players. The kids later apologized, ( i think at the refs request ) but it sucked. If I was new I probably would have went home.

[snoopay700]

I was playing pump ( woodsball ) and tried to run up on someone, and got hit. While sitting there with my hands up I got shot about a dozen times in the head/gun/arms/everywhere else. the ref actually stepped in between me and the other players. The kids later apologized, ( i think at the refs request ) but it sucked. If I was new I probably would have went home.

Yeah, that's why with woodsball i try to not go out into the open much when i play stock class. I'm not afraid to get hit, i just don't like getting hit a million times. It happens, it sucks, but it happens. Granted what happened to you is very extreme, and if it was that blatant of bonus balling i would have been really pissed.

[XM15]

I have been playing 18 years and the biggest change I have seen is spoiled brat kids playing. I know I'm old but when I started playing you had to be 16 to play. It was very rare to ever see parents hanging around the field unless they were playing too. Now its like its a weekend soccer game. Mom and dad sitting, watching. and pulling out the credit card. We all had jobs and paid for $115 cases of paint, entry fees and air fills out of our pockets. The only thing 16 year olds could aford to play with then was a pump if they had a semiauto they were real careful about pulling the trigger. Back in those days too the refs were mature (college age or older) and the vast majority of the players were mature and they kept the few 16 year old kids inline now its reversed. The judges are inmature high schoolers or younger and the vast majority of the players are too.

[fishmishin]

That's another fallacy i believe. Granted it's not like when paintball first started, but that's because it wasn't as popular, as it got more and more popular more people started playing, which upped the chances of there being huge jerks playing. The sport has always had them, it's just there are more of them now than when paintball started since there are more players now.

I would have to somewhat disagree with you on that one myself. I have played on fields that had just as many players in any given day as what I see at field these days. I don't really see the big number gains difference on the fields. It was just a better group of guys back then, and the refs were a lot better. At least were I worked at as head ref. I was probably the last guy you wanted to catch you goofing off and not doing your job, trust me. It's just plain different thats all. I am not going to even say we didn't have jerks back then, but they were handled a lot different than the are now, and because of the better reffing that they were more likely to be caught. I haven't been to a field yet since I have come back to playing were I thought the refs did above a sub par job. Maybe because it's not what I am used to seeing, I dunno know. I just haven't seen it yet and I have played on several different fields, in 3 different states, since I have been back. I am not going to blame it all on the refs either. On one hand it is up to us to let field management know what is going on. Like when I saw a ref on the field texting his girlfriend while the final battle is going on. If I hadn't made them aware of it they would have never known. I think the field owners should spend more time on the field watching what is going on themselves also. I am hoping that the company I work for will be opening a field in the area soon. If we can get everything worked out hopefully it will be open this year. I can promise you there will be a different kind of refs at this field since I am going to be the one running it. If not I am going to go through a lot of refs. I am determined to make it a place where new and old players can compete without the kind of things I have seen happen while playing this year. I have my work cut out for me for sure. I have several people mention that it will be hard to regulate. I think they are wrong, I think it takes the right refs and enough of them. I may run a few customers off because they won't like my rules, but chances are they won't be the kind of players I want at the facility anyway. Anyway thats my take on it, it has to start with the refs first !!

[Ando]

I think the mans got a point Fish. How else can you explain the sport going to hell? Quality not quantity. In a perfect world, both would be ideal but when the masses are "jerks". Meh..

It all comes down to upbringing in the sport. Most of this last gen of kids are a lost cause but like you were saying, refs are the key to all this.

I did a lot of refing when I was in Panama and Germany. Mainly because only a handful of us had any time under our belts. The sport hadn't really kicked off at all in Panama and it was somewhat solid in Germany. German law was probably the biggest factor in the sport. Not sure how it is now but there was talk about banning it all together when I was there. I'm sure some of "Unsere Freunde" can shed some light on how it is now.

But anyways. I rarely ran into any hotheads back in the day. Most of the "jerks" were military guys like myself but there's reasons behind that.

Now a days...forget it. Don't want the headache.

I'll def be the first to strangle or light-up me a 13yr old.

[fishmishin]

I don't really know where things went awry as I was out of playing rec ball for way to long, so I just can't say. I have a hard time just blaming it on there is more people, maybe the caliber of people, but I would have to question who's fault it is that the caliber of the people decayed, maybe the younger players just lacked positive models of what a respectable player actually is. Maybe I am just misunderstanding, or maybe everybody just got tired of it and threw there hands up and said to heck with it I can shoot that fast too. It certainly isn't the same game as what I used to know. I still love the sport and I still believe it can be carried on in a respectable manner. I know I am tired of hearing stories of people, especially walk-ons(rental) being overshot. I know with the rate of fire at most fields it is hard to not be overshot, but that is on the players and the refs to fix. I just don't see where it is necessary to put out that much paint to get someone out. I remember buying a case of Proball for $120 a case, and it lasting me 2-3 weekends of playing. I didn't have to shoot fast to get someone out. Now it's just "let's see if we can get this whole hopper of paint in the air, to get that one guy out of that bunker while my gun is set to ramp at 20bps". To me it's pretty stupid. Don't get me wrong I love the fact that the gun I just put together a week ago can roll on at 17-19 bps, but that is more for show for me. I haven't let it go on the field like that yet. I haven't seen the reason to. If I feel like I need to put out more paint it's all done on single trigger pulls. I hate ramping plain and simple, I think it was a stupid idea. I don't know who brought it to the market but they should get a good quick stiff kick in the lower extremities. It probably wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't in the hands of the wrong people, but it is. I am still not sure about that though either. I look at it as you can shoot this fast or you can't. Or you are this accurate or your not. These are some of things that I have in mind for helping out when we get the field open, if we ever do. I am open to suggestions also !!

1- 10 bps cap, period Yes I know I am killing the paint sales, but it is just plain safer and more enjoyable to new players. It's probably still to fast actually.
2- NO RAMPING AT ALL
3- Wiping will be handled with zero tolerance
4- Every effort will be made to keep teams as balanced as possible.
5- There will be a 1:10 ratio for refs, meaning there will be a ref for every 10 players on the field.
6- All games will have a time limit. This way we can make sure that everyone will get back in the game quickly.
7- All games will have a 5 minute turn around. Meaning that once the head ref walks off the field you have 5 minutes to be lined up for the next game, and he should be the last one off the field.

I know these are considered standard rules at most fields, but I question how much they are actually enforced. I plan on having them enforced strictly. This still has to be about safety of the players, no matter what age or experience.

I want to make the field more like a family atmosphere. I love seeing a parent out playing with their kids. All 3 of my kids like to play but only 1 is old enough to get on a field, and I would be very cautious to let her on a field these days with some of the jerks that are out there now. It would just end up with me wanting to kick someone's butt. I know of several families that play on a regular basis, and I believe that in this day and age that needs to be promoted. Now if it ever was, it is important to spend time with your kid. I think that is part of the reason why we see a lot kids on the field these days that have the F everybody else attitude. I am in no way just blaming it on the kids, speedballers, or woodsballers alone. I don't believe that it is just one side or the other but everybody as a whole. I think it will be up to all of us to start to make the effort to change it. We have to take the responsiblity to make better players, of ourselves and those who play around us. That is the attitude of the scenario team that I am on now and one of the reasons I joined that team. We strive to be stewards of the game, and to show everyone around us that the game can still be enjoyed by everyone if played in a respectable manner. I have seen some of these guys jump in and get shot to pieces to prevent a walk on player from getting the same treatment.

Ando I think your cool, and I don't really want to single you out or anything, but use you as an example more or less. You lighting up that 13 year old kid really won't show him anything. I understand it will show him how it feels, but I am not sure that will do the trick to keep him from returning the favor to the next player. I guess I really can't offer a suggestion as to what would other than showing him the same courtesy that you would expect while playing. Somewhere along the way this sport lost that respect for the other players. It is my belief that we will have to find it again someway for the game to carry on. Anyway I guess I have taken up enough space here in my coffee fueled rant. These are just some of the thing I think that will help thats all. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, cause if they do then the world will probably end tonight, lol !!

[Shirow]

That's the kind of field I like to play at :)

I think what killed it, honestly, was the tournament scene to some degree. What was different, back in the day, is that even if you had a semi, pulling 5bps was pretty crazy. Now we talk about 10bps like it's slow.

Now, before anyone gets all speedballers vs woodsballers - that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, the tournament scene specifically spawned a huge arms race that has finally started to slow down a little bit but it also spawned a ton of the 'aggro' junk that you see today as kids that were desperate to win did whatever necessary.

I think a lot of that rubbed off on a lot of people and it's still being passed around today.

I still distinctly remember the last tournament I played in before I quit paintball 3 years ago. We lost to some team and the last guy walks out with a giant paint splat right on his belt. I pointed it out and said he had been hit - not even really trying to change the outcome, just mentioning that it was a big hit for the ref to not notice. The kid then (over the period of about 2 minutes):

Got up in my face screaming about how it was 'just splatter' when it was clearly a break (with shell)
Got up in the refs face and started insulting him, his mother and everyone else
Informed me that I enjoyed the company of men because I was shooting a mag (don't even remember what he had, didn't really care.)
Took off his mask (on the field) and threw it at the ref

The funny thing is, nobody was even going to take any action on it.. I was just pointing it out to the ref as a 'why aren't you watching more closely' type of thing.

Thankfully, he got promptly ejected but I just thought to myself after that point - this isn't even fun and I'm done.

[Ando]

Ando I think your cool, and I don't really want to single you out or anything, but use you as an example more or less. You lighting up that 13 year old kid really won't show him anything. I understand it will show him how it feels, but I am not sure that will do the trick to keep him from returning the favor to the next player. I guess I really can't offer a suggestion as to what would other than showing him the same courtesy that you would expect while playing. Somewhere along the way this sport lost that respect for the other players. It is my belief that we will have to find it again someway for the game to carry on. Anyway I guess I have taken up enough space here in my coffee fueled rant. These are just some of the thing I think that will help thats all. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, cause if they do then the world will probably end tonight, lol !!

Maybe it's just me in my old age but I'm a firm believer of the old saying "An eye for an eye". Putting people in their place works on and off the field. I know one 17yr old kid is leery play when I'm on. He's one of those that don't care about other peoples well being. Refs call him on it sometimes but they can't be there with him 24/7. Mistakes happen, I've done it once before and apologize to the guy the second the game was over but constant abuse is absurd. One thing I've realize coming back semi hardcore to the sport after a on/off 8yr hiatus. It's redonkulous now.

Reason being it would be best if I never ref a game.

[fishmishin]

Like I said I wasn't picking on you by no means at all. It's just the way I look at it. Believe me I have had it happen since I have been back, and have walked around for the rest of the day waiting to return the favor. I know how it feels all to well. I got shot by a guy around the age of 30 in the side of the goggles, and I thought it broke, turned out that it hadn't but I called myself out, put my barrel bag on my gun, put my gun in the air along with my other hand, and proceeded to exit the field. Only to get about 5' from the bunker and have the same guy come out and shoot me a bout 10 more times, once in the armpit. I couldn't even speak to him because nothing would have come out in a fashion that would have been appropriate for the kids around me to hear. The whole time the ref is standing there laughing at me, he was around 16-17 years old. What I wanted to do was pummel both of them. If I told you I wasn't keeping an eye out for him for the rest of the day I would be telling you bold face lie. Fortunately for me & him he seemed to find his way on my team for the rest of the day. He never even acknowledged what he had done. This same guy has a bad habit of not calling his self out on a regular basis also. I saw a video of a guy who ran in on him as he was laying behind a bunker wiping paint off of himself after being shot in the mask. He took 3-4 on the top of the head that time. Was it enjoyable to see it , YES it was. Do I think it was right, no. I think the refs should have been doing a better job to begin with, and if they can't keep him under control escort him off the field. It's at a military installation so I'm sure the MP's would have no problems making it happen. So basically what I am saying is I see where your coming from, but I just don't think it should ever have to come to that, that's all. There is a fine line between being a steward of the game, and being the same person that wronged you. You can stand on any side of the fence you want to. It's totally up to you. I have to catch myself on a regular basis from going back on the field to hunt another player down and dealing them the same plate I have received from them. My personal feelings on that though is it is one of the things that got us where we are today, and it just won't help to turn things around. That 17 year old kid may be leery to play when your playing but what is stopping him from doing the same thing to someone else who is playing for the first time. It should be your refs, or you speaking to the field management about what is going on since the ref staff doesn't seem to be capable of taking care of it. Like I said I don't think any more or less of you because of your opinion on it, this is just the way I look at it.

[snoopay700]

I would have to somewhat disagree with you on that one myself. I have played on fields that had just as many players in any given day as what I see at field these days. I don't really see the big number gains difference on the fields. It was just a better group of guys back then, and the refs were a lot better. At least were I worked at as head ref. I was probably the last guy you wanted to catch you goofing off and not doing your job, trust me. It's just plain different thats all. I am not going to even say we didn't have jerks back then, but they were handled a lot different than the are now, and because of the better reffing that they were more likely to be caught. I haven't been to a field yet since I have come back to playing were I thought the refs did above a sub par job. Maybe because it's not what I am used to seeing, I dunno know. I just haven't seen it yet and I have played on several different fields, in 3 different states, since I have been back. I am not going to blame it all on the refs either. On one hand it is up to us to let field management know what is going on. Like when I saw a ref on the field texting his girlfriend while the final battle is going on. If I hadn't made them aware of it they would have never known. I think the field owners should spend more time on the field watching what is going on themselves also. I am hoping that the company I work for will be opening a field in the area soon. If we can get everything worked out hopefully it will be open this year. I can promise you there will be a different kind of refs at this field since I am going to be the one running it. If not I am going to go through a lot of refs. I am determined to make it a place where new and old players can compete without the kind of things I have seen happen while playing this year. I have my work cut out for me for sure. I have several people mention that it will be hard to regulate. I think they are wrong, I think it takes the right refs and enough of them. I may run a few customers off because they won't like my rules, but chances are they won't be the kind of players I want at the facility anyway. Anyway thats my take on it, it has to start with the refs first !!

I agree with that, but i wasn't talking on a local level. There are vastly more people playing now than there were even 10 or 15 years ago, and as that figure increases the number of d-bags increases at the same rate. Sure at the fields there aren't more people every weekend necessarily, i see that as a ref, but there are just more people playing the game, more newer people, and more guns that can reach a high ROF for cheaper. There is a large number of things contributing to why there are more douche bags out on the field, but there being more players is one of them.

Luckily at our field our refs are good, so that isn't much of a problem, but yesterday we did get info that there was some overshooting (i wasn't reffing that game so i didn't see what happened), from the sound of it it may have been just multiple people shooting at the poor person, but the ones that were accused of it we are going to keep an extra heavy watch on now to ensure that they aren't doing it, and if they are we'll keep kicking them from the field until they stop or if it comes down to it the owner just decides he doesn't want the person at the field, although something tells me that it won't likely happen simply because i know the guy that was accused, and if he was doing it and is kicked for it he either won't come back or he will stop doing it.

But hey, maybe i'm one of the ones that lucked out because the players i looked up to at my field were the guys who were honorable, and i can't remember a time when i wiped a hit, i have kept playing after i got hit when the person that shot me called out before they shot me, but i can't remember wiping ever. I sure as hell have wanted to wipe at some times, but i knew that i would be disappointed in myself later. Sadly there are a lot of people who wouldn't be.