Just out of curosity what is the reasoning against "flash filling"?

[MANN]

I took the time to post links and info. Did you take the time to read ANY of it. I swear this info was in the links I posted.

I deleted the rest due to the LARGE print. Yes I read every link. All the links within the post were dead due to the threads being a bit old.

The first link you gave was for scuba tanks. While that is a HPA tank I would think that the properties of a carbon fiber are different than just aluminum. None the less it explained why they heat up, and not why it is bad.

The second was a link to a UK based air supplier. Nothing against them, but that was just a basic warning to CYA. It does list a fill rate, but still does not answer the question as to why flash filling is dangerous.

All of the automag.org links I skimmed through with everyone giving their oppinions, but no one really explaining it.

The link that CP gave was useless as well. I completely understand how the pressure goes back down after flash filling.

The link that spider gave me is the reason that we dont put oil in our fill nipples, but not a reason to not flash fill.

The last link that you gave me actually provided some usefull (Ill spare you the sizeX text) information. A link within that page states

While this does not explain what is actually failing it is a little more specific in at least giving a recommended temperature to stay away from. Ie a temperature that will damage the tank.

[MANN]

The heat can destroy soft parts in the regulator; seen that happen many times.

As far as safety goes, I'm guessing you've never worked at a field or store... Ever seen a tank start to spiderweb, or split at the collar? It's much worse when you're dumping 4500psi in as fast as possible. How about an improperly installed regulator or one with a flaw in the threading sending a bottle across the room like a rocket? Only occurs when slam-filling... You might say such flaws are the result of poor maintenance or handling, but flash filling IS poor handling.

Owned a store...nope. I was a licensed paintball buisness, and have filled my own tanks since the ~6th grade. CO2 for the first 5 or 6 then on to scubas. I have filled hundreds, and maybe thousands of CO2 tanks without scales, and have only had 1 burst disk iirc rupture on me to date. I have filled quite a few HPA tanks with scubas, and done self serve fields as well.

I have never had a tank do anything that you mentioned. I have always done a form of flash filling. (Always filling a tank within a minute or so)

[MANN]

So now solving "flash filling" problems. Could you not have a ice bath next to a fill station to prevent the tank from reaching 140*F? It wouldn't be hard to place the tank (still attached to the marker) in a tank of water while filling it.

[Frizzle Fry]

So now solving "flash filling" problems. Could you not have a ice bath next to a fill station to prevent the tank from reaching 140*F? It wouldn't be hard to place the tank (still attached to the marker) in a tank of water while filling it.

That's generally what they do for large tanks; fluidic cooling or c02 cooling is common.

[athomas]

So now solving "flash filling" problems. Could you not have a ice bath next to a fill station to prevent the tank from reaching 140*F? It wouldn't be hard to place the tank (still attached to the marker) in a tank of water while filling it.

Not only would it cool the tank, but it would add a measure of protection in the event of a failure.

Flash filling is not recommended because the conditions of the flash fill cannot be adequately controlled, even with trained field techs. No one can tell what type of foreign matter may be present in the tank to act as a fuel that could ignite at a high temperature. Also, and more importantly, the lamination of fiber on aluminum tanks can be affected by rapid changes in heat. The aluminum expands at a different rate than the carbon fiber wrap when heated at a very rapid rate. This is the same reason why you shouldn't use both CO2 in your carbon fiber tanks. The rapid cooling while firing CO2 causes uneven rapid cooling between the tank and the fiber wrap and can cause delamination.

[DevilMan]

I think there needs to be a line drawn in the sand here as to what the definition of flash/slam filling is.

I do not consider the fill of 1 minute a flash/slam fill. The fill that I use and see at most places that takes about 30 seconds I don't consider a flash/slam fill.

Again I've only ever been 1 place that I know of that they do the flash/slam fills and that was down in SoCal. You hand your bottle to the guy and he turns around and puts it on the fill whip. hits the button and in less than I'd say 2 seconds your bottle reads 4500. That to me is a flash/slam fill.

Just the over name of flash/slam could be to some people that it's the manifolds that have the buttons that you slam down on to open them up. I have used those as well as the ones with the joystick to open the valve. Neither I would consider a flash/slam fill.

Maybe the definition should be made as to what is what first, as some of us know there is a difference and I think others have never dealt with it. There is a very BIG difference in the two.

DM

[athomas]

I think there needs to be a line drawn in the sand here as to what the definition of flash/slam filling is.

I do not consider the fill of 1 minute a flash/slam fill. The fill that I use and see at most places that takes about 30 seconds I don't consider a flash/slam fill.

I was thinking the same thing. A slam fill only takes a couple of seconds to fill a tank.

[Beemer]

So now solving "flash filling" problems. Could you not have a ice bath next to a fill station to prevent the tank from reaching 140*F? It wouldn't be hard to place the tank (still attached to the marker) in a tank of water while filling it.

Sorry for the large type. I fixed it but it seemed like you just werent GETTING it.

A slam/flash fill is ANY fill that creates to much HEAT. Or as I would say one where the pressure drops off after the fill to LESS then a Full fill of what the out put is good for.

But its not a problem, is it? Do some SLAM/FLASH fills and get some temperature readings.

The solution is EASY. It was used at NPPL with 3000psi fills when we first started using HPA back in 92 or so.

AirAmerica got it right at ShatnerBall3 doing the fills. Ask Dan Colby how they did that.

As is with most things Paintball instead of being safe and smart about it we are stupid.

Go show NASA, Carleton, the Dive folks and others how we fill and guess what they will say.
I know I have asked not just on this but on other things as well. I dont ask anymore. Got tired of hearing how stupid we are.

[MANN]

The solution is EASY. It was used at NPPL with 3000psi fills when we first started using HPA back in 92 or so.

What method did they use? I didnt start with HPA until the 2000s.

I dont think that paintball will quit filling tanks fast. Our society wants everything fast. Cooling looks to be the best option atm.

[Beemer]

What method did they use? I didnt start with HPA until the 2000s. Cooling looks to be the best option atm.

Well you all ready know the answer. Nobody likes it. cooling isnt needed.

The best and only way is the SAFE[right] way.

[cockerpunk]

cooling works great, and you get a true 4500 fill (if the tank is at 4500 PSI). you do lose all the energy into the water bath though, so the overall "effienecy" of the compressor and tank system will be lower. so what though?

i think frankly the saftey concerns are a bit unwarrented. the epoxy wont be melting for the heat and the strain rate of a high fill rate wont break or fatgue the metal and fibers.

[Spider-TW]

i think frankly the saftey concerns are a bit unwarrented. the epoxy wont be melting for the heat and the strain rate of a high fill rate wont break or fatgue the metal and fibers.

Did you find some data on bottle epoxy? The common loctite epoxy melts pretty low. I've melted JB weld before. I worked in a lab where they did some composite testing, but I can't remember which epoxy it was, and it wasn't for bottles.

If you're talking about a fill in a few seconds, I doubt a water bath would stop the aluminum liner from getting to about the same temperature as it did before. The increased temperature differential on a tank that was allowed to cool before filling could aggravate the problem (not much, but it may not help at all on temperature).

I doubt there is a serious safety concern from simple delamination. The fiber jacket will probably contain a simple liner fatigue failure. You would get much more liner fatigue if the liner separated from the epoxy and pushed it out in multiple heating and cooling cycles.

The problem is that you cannot design, test, and sell a bottle that you know is safe at all levels of abuse without jacking the price up to military industry standards. If you would pay $1800 instead of $180 for a brand new, high end bottle, you could get a bottle (probably the same one) "designed" for any kind of fill you wanted to do. You just have to pay for the testing. It will cost a lot more if you want to be able to put combustibles in it.

The CYA business is a matter of "here's a product; use it this way; it wasn't tested for anything else". Sometimes you are just pushing the design past the actual rated safety factors that they do have data for.

Until someone builds an automatic slam fill rig and runs a few thousand (or million) cycles on a bunch of bottles, you won't have a full answer. If the manufacturer has done this, they are not going to share the data, and you would have to accept their warnings anyway.

[cockerpunk]

Did you find some data on bottle epoxy? The common loctite epoxy melts pretty low. I've melted JB weld before. I worked in a lab where they did some composite testing, but I can't remember which epoxy it was, and it wasn't for bottles.

If you're talking about a fill in a few seconds, I doubt a water bath would stop the aluminum liner from getting to about the same temperature as it did before. The increased temperature differential on a tank that was allowed to cool before filling could aggravate the problem (not much, but it may not help at all on temperature).

I doubt there is a serious safety concern from simple delamination. The fiber jacket will probably contain a simple liner fatigue failure. You would get much more liner fatigue if the liner separated from the epoxy and pushed it out in multiple heating and cooling cycles.

The problem is that you cannot design, test, and sell a bottle that you know is safe at all levels of abuse without jacking the price up to military industry standards. If you would pay $1800 instead of $180 for a brand new, high end bottle, you could get a bottle (probably the same one) "designed" for any kind of fill you wanted to do. You just have to pay for the testing. It will cost a lot more if you want to be able to put combustibles in it.

The CYA business is a matter of "here's a product; use it this way; it wasn't tested for anything else". Sometimes you are just pushing the design past the actual rated safety factors that they do have data for.

Until someone builds an automatic slam fill rig and runs a few thousand (or million) cycles on a bunch of bottles, you won't have a full answer. If the manufacturer has done this, they are not going to share the data, and you would have to accept their warnings anyway.

are you implying that tank failure is frequent in paintball?

to my knoweldge there isn't a single tank failure in the USA paintball, only reglator and dethreading failures.

seems pretty safe to me ... DOT seems to hav a pretty good test becuase of the sucess rate in the USA.

[nerobro]

I know of a steel tank that blew the bottom off on a slam fill...

[DevilMan]

are you implying that tank failure is frequent in paintball?

to my knoweldge there isn't a single tank failure in the USA paintball, only reglator and dethreading failures.

seems pretty safe to me ... DOT seems to hav a pretty good test becuase of the sucess rate in the USA.

Are you implying that just because you don't know about it that it doesn't exist?

Not any and every failure of something is going to hit the news or be published in the paper or make headlines. Hell man you can't even find a local listing of a major paintball game when it comes to town. So you think that any of the other crap is going to matter to the rest of the populace?

As far as the cooling part... I agree that a water jacket isn't really going to solve the problem. Even if you heat the bottle to 150* it's still going to allow the AL inside the bottle to heat up to some extent before it's able to be cooled back down. And it could also aggravate the problem.

I have an idea... What don't some of you down in SoCal (only place I know that they do slam/flash fills) take one of your out of date bottles and see how many times it takes it and see what the temps are and such as that. See if you can get one to grenade. Granted I would like to know that you guys are protecting yourselves and such, but maybe the field would allow you to do some testing for a day. Just to see. That way there'd be no other people around to get hurt/damaged in the event something does go wrong.

If I had a place up here that I knew did it, I'd be tempted to take an old bottle or two and see what happens.

DM