Stolen RT

[BiNumber3]

If the kid bought it at a reasonable price from someone who he thinks isn't a shady character, how can you blame him for being "ignorant of the law". I've bought and sold from people I don't know, at very low prices (here even), does that mean there is something fishy with that and we should investigate the origins of whatever is being sold?

To try to say the kid is at fault for paying for something is silly in my opinion, especially with no proof, and from what it looks like, months after the theft occured. As for reciepts and such, few people bother with them, let alone a kid who just wants to play....

Why attack the kid who paid for an item, rather than the kid who stole the item and sold it.

[Tunaman]

It doesn't matter that the kid bought it unbeknowst. It is stolen property, and the law says anyone in possession of it is at fault. If the op already got paid from the insurance company for his loss, then it is up to him to tell the insurance company where it is so they can recover it. The marker belongs to them now. Everyone involved in the theft and resale of stolen merchandise is liable and should be prosecuted.

[sQuidvision]

It doesn't matter that the kid bought it unbeknowst. It is stolen property, and the law says anyone in possession of it is at fault...

According to that wikipedia article justus linked (and its on wikipedia so it MUST me true ) it DOES matter that he didn't know it was stolen.

[Justus]

According to that wikipedia article justus linked (and its on wikipedia so it MUST me true ) it DOES matter that he didn't know it was stolen.

Yeah, that's apparently not commonly known. But it is true. It's a nugget of common law designed to protect the rights of an innocent buyer. Of course, without documentation I guess there's no reason the original owner couldn't just point the finger at the kid and accuse him of theft and lying about being a BFP.

[Frizzle Fry]

Frizzle: did not show up on Craigs list. Person who has it is a player at a nearby(60=miles) field. As to type, he listens, plays well and is a standup no matter who he is with. Dad is a local to that area farmer, on a 3rd gen farm.

There ya go. I was just posing a hypothetical.

Tough situation, though.

[vf-xx]

I dunno. I think 1stTarget is being pretty stand up about it.

Theoretically 1stT was made whole by the insurance (at least as much as is possible). From a moral perspective, if he knows the local kid and does not believe that he acted in bad faith, I see no reason why he can't choose to let it go.

As for the legal status of that option, I suspect it varies state by state. Overall the value is low enough (in grand adult terms), that I don't see any moral complications by not informing the insurance company.

A reasonable, adult conversation with the kid's dad to let him know that it was stolen is a good idea. The kid should learn to be more careful, but given the time delay, there's no saying that it didn't pass hands a couple of times.

At least there's some form of closure.

[Tunaman]

It does vary state to state. In some states it does not matter if the guy knew it was stolen or not. He can still be charged. "Bonafide Purchaser" only relates to legally obtained items. You cannot be a "bonafide purchaser" of stolen goods. But I am not a laywer, hence my research and findings on these matters does not amount to much as there are exceptions to the rule for sure.

[halB]

Frizzle: did not show up on Craigs list. Person who has it is a player at a nearby(60=miles) field. As to type, he listens, plays well and is a standup no matter who he is with. Dad is a local to that area farmer, on a 3rd gen farm.
Op: Thief is upstate in a secure max, so he is paying. And a police report on the marker is on file.
halB: See above. And deductible was under $300. Received $1385 from theft, many multiple items missing. Insurance valued marker at $400 after depreciation. So no it all you need to learn to tone down you responses. So you are batting 0 so far. If found I would need to buy it back. Approximately $250. So cost is a factor. Still batting 0.

I'm only batting for 0 in your eyes because you apparently have never dealt with these "boosters." They have a description, they have a job, and they have customers.

But sure, if the kids so stand up, what do you have to lose by asking his help in getting closure about who he got the marker from? Hell, maybe it wasn't your daughter's boyfriend.

I have had several items stolen from me. I have always gotten them back. Because I know what I am doing in this seedy world. And the thief always pays the full price. I have no patience for thieves, and much less for victims who make it easy for thieves to continue being thieves.

And I was correct, your insurance cut you a check, which would be the event I said would require you to buy it back (they subrogated your claim, so the gun became theirs). So, it appears you can't even compute baseball statistics.

Oh, and since it IS the insurance company's gun, your knowledge of where it is and not telling them would be very close to accessory after the fact for insurance fraud. So, if you want to be a stand up guy and do the right thing, you gotta get that gun back to the insurance company. edit: And that would teach the "innocent purchaser" a valuable lesson about dealing in stolen property.

Seriously, you don't even know how much this kid paid for the gun, and you're willing to roll over and make it easy for him to rob you.

edit2: Actually, now that I think about it, you are really making yourself liable for insurance fraud. The gun is yours. The gun is now in the kid's hands. You know, but you do nothing. This, to the whole world and the courts, looks like you made a gratuitous transfer to the kid. You gifted it to the kid. But wait, you've collected insurance money because it was "stolen." That's fraud. You gave this kid a gift, and got some money. This wouldn't look good in court.

[halB]

It does vary state to state. In some states it does not matter if the guy knew it was stolen or not. He can still be charged. "Bonafide Purchaser" only relates to legally obtained items. You cannot be a "bonafide purchaser" of stolen goods. But I am not a laywer, hence my research and findings on these matters does not amount to much as there are exceptions to the rule for sure.

To speak of this in grand general terms, and this is possible because of the uniform commmercial code, the courts will protect an "innocent and bona fide purchaser." Kind of the same thing, because it's a measuring of the transaction.

First of all, if you buy a marker, used new or whatever, from a merchant who is in the business of selling that item (building, business permit, you know, a real store) then the innocent purchaser gets to keep the item, and the original owner's remedy lies in suing the store for the value. But the marker stays with the innocent purchaser. So when you buy a car from a used car dealer (but NOT a car rental place, or a guy who runs a car dealership but is doing it on the side) you're safe, you get to keep the car. At some point, the title MUST be good. Most things cannot be traced back to a patent (a patent is a government's granting of property to a person. All land can be traced back to a patent. The sovereign has the best claim to all property.) To state it most powerfully, if you buy something stolen from an antique shop, you get to keep the item, even if the original owner finds it.

Now then, as to an innocent bonafide purchaser who does not purchase from a merchant in the business of selling that item, the innocent purchaser loses the item, it goes back to the owner, and the innocent purchaser has a case against the person that the item was purchased from.

Finally, a purchaser is innocent and bona fide based upon the nature of the transaction. If you meet a guy on craigslist and buy a bike, and he shows you a receipt, and the price isn't ridiculously low, then you're probably innocent. It looks legit (receipt) and you aren't mulcting the situation (you're not paying a price so low that it looks like you're benefiting from theft). But if you are walking down the street at three am, and a guy whispers "want a bike? 20 bux!" and you buy it, then you sure as hell are guilty of dealing in stolen property. You are not innocent because of the context, and you are not bona fide because you aren't paying anywhere close to the true value of the bike (assuming it's not a crappy bike).

Which makes this whole situation more hilarious, because OP has nooooooooo idea how his marker came to be in the hands of this kid, and yet he is willing to stand up for him. He doesn't know! It could've been bought in a back alley at three am, or it could have been purchased from a brick and mortar paintball store or field.

[Drix]

Since gloves are coming off in this thread I have a question I've been rolling in my head for quite some time and would like cleared up:

Source:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3783178

Last weekend Snow Flake showed up. Do not know how or who. Not gonna ask. Local mag owners are a tight group.No visible dings, airs up, and fires well. Just need to re chronograph.

It is found, but. If I take possession:
!. Have to buy it back from insurance company. Guess which choice I have to make.

I am confused here but, with the such blaring inconsistancy I don't see any reason to be fighting over this story at all. When the owner wants to tell us what REALLY happened (Cops recovering it versus it showing up on his doorstep by a fellow baller) then I believe we can begin yelling at eachother about details. Until then save your breath for something worth fighting about, like wheres your PTP and how to best squeek efficiency out of your xvalve.

[1stTarget]

Insurance company because of value would not involve themselves. Across state lines. It was in my hands for a few moments. Friend asked to borrow it for the next weekend for a game. Because of his rep, father allowed loan. After seeing my marker, I had him return it. Honor takes some odd trails. If I get it back (any numbers of ways) I will need to negotiate with Insurance company to buy it back as scrap cost. I have another RT that was a gift, and then I upgraded. Sales thread shows some of the dealing. As much as I want it back, paying for it again, and having two RT mags is a little over the top. Much involved. Oh and cops when asked said some one would be charged with receiving stolen goods if they became involved. Words from some one who knows family said Dad was looking for a marker for his son. Word traveled. He had a few offers, and choose the RT(showed good taste). Dad runs a family farm, son is good student, works for his extra's. Kind of neighbors we would all like. If cops brought charges dad would probably take the blame, until court. And i believe he would be found innocent. Meanwhile person who sold it to him is now known by my friend. Word is out to the regulars to watch him/ keep kids from buying from him. He is the type that always has an extra gun for sale. Local County sheriff has been given an anonymous tip on things(worked for local cops as an auxiliary for 18 years, so know the way to get info into right hands). Friend of friends are easier to deal with, especially if you were both a Lt. and unit chaplain. Oh and our local swat team plays paint ball to relax. Is father innocent? Probably. Is kid? Yes. Is fence being set up? ... . Going top take a little trip to that field. Meet the kid and play a few games. Hopefully other will be there when my crew is. Can some one say bonus ball? And as posted on different forums at different times, the post are made in the rough order of info. Friend will remain unnamed ( to protect the "innocent"). Is there a truly innocent party, God knows. Is justice being done? In time yes. Dad will probably find out, hope fully son will never, as he is probably the most innocent of all in this. Do I want snow flake back? Yes. At what cost? I have kids, would I want to do any thing to embarrass them.? No. Do I want to bring shame to a good man? blank no!
And for the rest of us. Can every thing we have bought been traced to make sure it is legal? So this would make a great Perry Mason episode. I can follow the law and be satisfied. Or I can be an example of honor and integrity, and smile. Or I can walk away, and let justice take it's course. He who is with out sin, of any kind, make the first negative post.

[OPBN]

Headhurtstryingtoreadthat.

Seriously, if you're happy with the way it is panning out, just go to the first post, delete the thread and move on. Stop looking for input when you really don't want it.

[my automag]

Glad you found it in one piece... good luck sorting it out too.

[halB]

Insurance company because of value would not involve themselves. Across state lines. It was in my hands for a few moments. Friend asked to borrow it for the next weekend for a game. Because of his rep, father allowed loan. After seeing my marker, I had him return it. Honor takes some odd trails. If I get it back (any numbers of ways) I will need to negotiate with Insurance company to buy it back as scrap cost. I have another RT that was a gift, and then I upgraded. Sales thread shows some of the dealing. As much as I want it back, paying for it again, and having two RT mags is a little over the top. Much involved. Oh and cops when asked said some one would be charged with receiving stolen goods if they became involved. Words from some one who knows family said Dad was looking for a marker for his son. Word traveled. He had a few offers, and choose the RT(showed good taste). Dad runs a family farm, son is good student, works for his extra's. Kind of neighbors we would all like. If cops brought charges dad would probably take the blame, until court. And i believe he would be found innocent. Meanwhile person who sold it to him is now known by my friend. Word is out to the regulars to watch him/ keep kids from buying from him. He is the type that always has an extra gun for sale. Local County sheriff has been given an anonymous tip on things(worked for local cops as an auxiliary for 18 years, so know the way to get info into right hands). Friend of friends are easier to deal with, especially if you were both a Lt. and unit chaplain. Oh and our local swat team plays paint ball to relax. Is father innocent? Probably. Is kid? Yes. Is fence being set up? ... . Going top take a little trip to that field. Meet the kid and play a few games. Hopefully other will be there when my crew is. Can some one say bonus ball? And as posted on different forums at different times, the post are made in the rough order of info. Friend will remain unnamed ( to protect the "innocent"). Is there a truly innocent party, God knows. Is justice being done? In time yes. Dad will probably find out, hope fully son will never, as he is probably the most innocent of all in this. Do I want snow flake back? Yes. At what cost? I have kids, would I want to do any thing to embarrass them.? No. Do I want to bring shame to a good man? blank no!
And for the rest of us. Can every thing we have bought been traced to make sure it is legal? So this would make a great Perry Mason episode. I can follow the law and be satisfied. Or I can be an example of honor and integrity, and smile. Or I can walk away, and let justice take it's course. He who is with out sin, of any kind, make the first negative post.

I explained in my other post how we know when something is yours, when you buy it from a walmart. Actually, the question is never "how do we prove that this is ours," for possession is really 9/10ths of the law in this, the question is, if the original owner can prove that it was stolen and that it got into that person's hands, then does the property return to the original owner, or does the property stay with the innocent bona fide purchaser, in which case the original owner would have to sue the seller to be made whole. That is always the question with stolen goods.

BTW OP, nice job finally posting the story You've been making it seem like the kid bought the marker. So... now the dad bought the gun?

[halB]

Since gloves are coming off in this thread I have a question I've been rolling in my head for quite some time and would like cleared up:

Source:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3783178

I am confused here but, with the such blaring inconsistancy I don't see any reason to be fighting over this story at all. When the owner wants to tell us what REALLY happened (Cops recovering it versus it showing up on his doorstep by a fellow baller) then I believe we can begin yelling at eachother about details. Until then save your breath for something worth fighting about, like wheres your PTP and how to best squeek efficiency out of your xvalve.

Drix, you should work for Dateline or 60 minutes!