Mech only games

[cockerpunk]

See, this is where the thread is veering a bit off from what I thought was originally being discussed in the other thread that got move here. I am interested in an Old School marker game where the older the better marker is brought out and encouraged. Giving out awards for rarest makers, oldest marker etc. If you had enough guys getting together to have a squad of Mag guys going against a squad of Cocker guys and such. I really could care less about mech, electro or whatever, I would like to just see a game with some really old cool markers on the field. I recently went to a CPPL gathering at a localish field and was actually surprised at some of the markers brought out. At one point, there was me with my Mag, another guy with a Palmers, 2-3 guys with cockers and some dude with an old Pro Carbine. Afterwards, we all were in the staging area admiring each others markers and such. It was cool.

sounds like you just need a group of players that are fun to play with, more then you need a classic marker rule. on any given rec day around here there is everything from SC pumps to the newest and fastest.

[athomas]

I ment for RT effect. its how they used to do tourneys. if the refs could bounce your trigger over a certain BPS youd be DQed

I remember that, but it was for bounce more than bps.

[Freedy500]

Okay I am not siding with either sides of any of this ROF loopholes thing (although Qloaders are not difficult and unfair!!) but what about this. You alert everyone ahead of time that it is CO2 only. Bam. Some of you may not like it but if you look at it, it would be the easiest and simplest way to keep down ROF and amount of paint in the air. And this wouldn't be difficult because I hope that most of us still have our old CO2 valves lying around somewhere. and if not they are very cheap. When using CO2 there is no walking the trigger, there is no RT effect and most especially there is some shoot-down depending on whether you changed up the trigger pull to be insanely light on a CO2 valve.

This would be great in my point of view as not everyone is being forced to use a rental marker and they still get to keep their custom gear. I will never use a rental as whenever I walk around with one I feel exposed and out in the open, I feel uncomfortable for some reason.

Benifits
-No high ROF
-Performance playing field is largely evened out
-Does not ban any equipment except for HPA tanks.

Downsides
-No high ROF
-You cant run a slaughterhouse

Just thought to express my point of view although I am nearly the heavy gunner you described. I carry almost a case of paint on me (1600 shots) on field with a 90/45 1100 psi output. But I am not rolling in $$$. I am able to easily control my ROF and I dont use it often. I never buy more than a case a day (exceptions on big games) and my technological abilities do not come without a downside. My vest is not exactly lightweight as I carry 15 Qpods in it (using Q is heavier if you use a lot of them) and quite a few more 140 pods for my friends as I have been dubbed the human pack mule I carry all of this because I enjoy staying out in the field as long as possible and not having to worry about the efficiency of my equipment holding me back. Not to spray and pray on rental users.

[OPBN]

Is it possible to run a game with only markers that were in production pre-2000 (or pick a year)? If your goal is to have nostalgic markers why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?

I wasnt.

[cockerpunk]

Okay I am not siding with either sides of any of this ROF loopholes thing (although Qloaders are not difficult and unfair!!) but what about this. You alert everyone ahead of time that it is CO2 only. Bam. Some of you may not like it but if you look at it, it would be the easiest and simplest way to keep down ROF and amount of paint in the air. And this wouldn't be difficult because I hope that most of us still have our old CO2 valves lying around somewhere. and if not they are very cheap. When using CO2 there is no walking the trigger, there is no RT effect and most especially there is some shoot-down depending on whether you changed up the trigger pull to be insanely light on a CO2 valve.

This would be great in my point of view as not everyone is being forced to use a rental marker and they still get to keep their custom gear. I will never use a rental as whenever I walk around with one I feel exposed and out in the open, I feel uncomfortable for some reason.

Benifits
-No high ROF
-Performance playing field is largely evened out
-Does not ban any equipment except for HPA tanks.

Downsides
-No high ROF
-You cant run a slaughterhouse

Just thought to express my point of view although I am nearly the heavy gunner you described. I carry almost a case of paint on me (1600 shots) on field with a 90/45 1100 psi output. But I am not rolling in $$$. I am able to easily control my ROF and I dont use it often. I never buy more than a case a day (exceptions on big games) and my technological abilities do not come without a downside. My vest is not exactly lightweight as I carry 15 Qpods in it (using Q is heavier if you use a lot of them) and quite a few more 140 pods for my friends as I have been dubbed the human pack mule I carry all of this because I enjoy staying out in the field as long as possible and not having to worry about the efficiency of my equipment holding me back. Not to spray and pray on rental users.

you can run co2 in most any gun without issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M6wM0KHWNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_jKjhWzYQk&feature=watch_response

[Freedy500]

you can run co2 in most any gun without issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M6wM0KHWNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_jKj...watch_response

Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.

Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.

[GoatBoy]

So a guy comes to the field with a Qloaded pneumag. Then you're going to say "okay, no pneumatic triggers" or "okay, no spring-loaded hoppers".

Why make rules for a desired goal with the knowledge that there are loopholes that people can and will exploit? Just say that the game will have a limited ROF and be done with it.

Of course if you've now changed your tune, and instead are wanting to make these rules to encourage mechanical innovation, then I'll point out that it's not necessary to set some people up for failure in an actual game. Just post a contest to see it happen. That way the people who use a shake & bake with a blowback Tippmann don't get pasted and leave feeling like they got cheated. See below...

So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

Anyone can say "if you think it's dumb then don't play", but how far do you take it? If people are informed ahead of time to expect that a certain number of people on the field will have a huge firepower advantage due to their ability to legally exploit the rules, you can rest assured that the interest level will drop dramatically.

This would actually work. Instead of making vague limitations on equipment that fail assure an even playing field... just issue standardized equipment in the first place.

But nobody who is proposing the "mech only" rules as a way to limit the ROF has even addressed my point: Why not just have a simple rule limiting ROF if that's the actual goal? If 12.5 bps PSP ramping is too much, make the limit 8 bps semi-only. Any other set of rules that is proposed to achieve that goal, without actually setting the ROF limit, just leads to exploitation based upon the known ambiguity.

If your goal is ______________________________ why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?

[cockerpunk]

Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.

Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.

you were already corrected in the post you were responding to. you can, if you want to, run co2 through most if not all current high end guns, with less then 100 bucks in parts, if not bone stock already.

[Freedy500]

you were already corrected in the post you were responding to. you can, if you want to, run co2 through most if not all current high end guns, with less then 100 bucks in parts, if not bone stock already.

Well nevermind then. Dang I thought I had a good idea If I was right then it would have been perfect and easy to enforce. Worth a shot. I gotta keep up with electro's

[Justus]

It started off as simply "mech only", with no batteries even for the hopper. When I pointed out that a qloaded X-valve Mag would still have an absurdly high rate of fire (and even posted a video to prove it), you changed the rules to include "no excessively reactive trigger". I've got a pneumag in the works, just need the time and cash to put together the remaining parts. They're really not as uncommon as you make them out to be. Sure, qloaders are uncommon right now, but that's because people have always been free to use battery-powered hoppers that are much easier to set up and use. But my point is that if you create a game whereby a certain set of equipment has the advantage, then people will build it as it becomes their priority. As that happens, I can foresee another rule revision to exclude spring loaded or pneumatic hoppers and triggers. Otherwise, the rules really have no purpose if the goal is to limit ROF.

So the goal did change. First it was mech only to limit ROF. Now it's to simply play without batteries or RT triggers.

You want to have a game where the only purpose is to play without batteries and RT triggers, that's fine. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls and asking the question, "with xyz setup, what's actually changed about the gameplay?" If nothing... then what's the point of telling someone else what they can or can't play with?

Also I think you should let the Tippmann players speak for themselves. Are you one of them?

I run a field where the rentals are shake & bake Alpha Blacks, and I ran an A5 marker before I got into Mags. I still have a 98 Custom in my gearbag as a backup/loaner, and some games I'll roll out with nothing but my TPX. So, yeah, I kinda am one of them.

Yeah, I play recball. Try to at least monthly. There's usually a pretty good mix of modern electros, RT's and blowbacks. Some people use pumps, others use ramping - and it's all by choice, not by any certain set of rules. If I use my ETac rather than my pump or TPX, I have it set at 10 to 12 bps limit, semi auto, and I honestly don't shoot any faster than the blowbacks - primarily because I've never been good at walking the trigger and refuse to use ramping. Because I run a field it's my first priority to make sure the walk-ons have fun and are excited about returning to play again. If you're trying to insinuate that I shoot ropes on people with rental markers simply because I have the possibility of a ROF advantage, think again.

And no, when I warned about the huge playing-field gap that will result from your proposed rules, I wasn't describing anything remotely like recball, which has players at both extremes and also dispersed throughout the middle of the ROF spectrum because they all have the ability to choose what equipment setups they want to use.

Yeah, of course this is a good point, aside from the implication that a pneumag is like a unicorn. I mean, c'mon, you can buy a bolt-on sleeper frame pretty easily if you just look in the BST from time to time. And you don't even need a pneumag. A finely tuned ULT is darn near walkable by itself. But, I digress. What athomas said ties right in with my point - if the purpose is to limit the ROF, then just allow people to limit their ROF and use their desired equipment. You'll get your gameplay change without prohibiting people from using the equipment that they prefer and have invested in.

I don't "want my own game", I'm simply trying to further the discussion on some possible alternate game formats and what I believe will work, and what I believe will ultimately not do enough to make any noticeable difference.

[Lohman446]

Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.

Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.

AKA, IIRC, said that an anti-siphon CO2 tank attached to a Palmers stabilizer was just acceptable to use in a Viking. This is why you have to actually write rules to accomplish what you mean to accomplish because otherwise someone will "side step" what you were trying to do with a creative solution. I would guess the electro-Blazer would have no issue

For the record the old PSP and NPPL rules required that loaders have some gravity portion in them - the warp was questionable if it met the rules requirements. For some reason the HALO was given a pass.

[Freedy500]

damn loop-holes

[GoatBoy]

It started off as simply "mech only", with no batteries even for the hopper. When I pointed out that a qloaded X-valve Mag would still have an absurdly high rate of fire (and even posted a video to prove it), you changed the rules to include "no excessively reactive trigger". I've got a pneumag in the works, just need the time and cash to put together the remaining parts. They're really not as uncommon as you make them out to be. Sure, qloaders are uncommon right now, but that's because people have always been free to use battery-powered hoppers that are much easier to set up and use. But my point is that if you create a game whereby a certain set of equipment has the advantage, then people will build it as it becomes their priority. As that happens, I can foresee another rule revision to exclude spring loaded or pneumatic hoppers and triggers. Otherwise, the rules really have no purpose if the goal is to limit ROF.

So the goal did change. First it was mech only to limit ROF. Now it's to simply play without batteries or RT triggers.

You want to have a game where the only purpose is to play without batteries and RT triggers, that's fine. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls and asking the question, "with xyz setup, what's actually changed about the gameplay?" If nothing... then what's the point of telling someone else what they can or can't play with?

I run a field where the rentals are shake & bake Alpha Blacks, and I ran an A5 marker before I got into Mags. I still have a 98 Custom in my gearbag as a backup/loaner, and some games I'll roll out with nothing but my TPX. So, yeah, I kinda am one of them.

Great, excellent. So as one of these operators, do you personally feel pasted/cheated when you step out into a game where someone else has an overwhelming advantage? If not, why would you think someone else would feel the same way?

If I use my ETac rather than my pump or TPX, I have it set at 10 to 12 bps limit, semi auto, and I honestly don't shoot any faster than the blowbacks - primarily because I've never been good at walking the trigger

Because I run a field it's my first priority to make sure the walk-ons have fun and are excited about returning to play again. If you're trying to insinuate that I shoot ropes on people with rental markers simply because I have the possibility of a ROF advantage, think again.

And no, when I warned about the huge playing-field gap that will result from your proposed rules, I wasn't describing anything remotely like recball, which has players at both extremes and also dispersed throughout the middle of the ROF spectrum because they all have the ability to choose what equipment setups they want to use.

So the huge gap in a mech-only game would be larger than the huge gap in a recball game where everything else is allowed.

Uhh....

Yeah, of course this is a good point, aside from the implication that a pneumag is like a unicorn. I mean, c'mon, you can buy a bolt-on sleeper frame pretty easily if you just look in the BST from time to time. And you don't even need a pneumag. A finely tuned ULT is darn near walkable by itself.

I don't "want my own game", I'm simply trying to further the discussion on some possible alternate game formats and what I believe will work, and what I believe will ultimately not do enough to make any noticeable difference.

[Justus]

Meh, the rants are getting too long and off focus. Edited this post out in an effort to stop the landslide. Do whatever you feel will work, GoatBoy, and good luck with it. I sincerely hope people will end up playing within the spirit of your proposed rules.

[BTAutoMag]

wow