Zap Cheater pneumatics?

[Pneumagger]

Been outta the game for awhile so this item is new to me and I have a few questions. Google wasn't too much help either. From what I gathered, it looks like a brass housing that houses a horizontal on/off mated with a plastic ram. Simple.

a) How well does it work (compared to your typical MSV-2 and ULT on/off pneumag setup)? Easily walkable, reliable, doesn't chuff or short stroke?
b) Does it work with an intelliframe?
c) How much do they cost and where can I obtain one?

Thanks guys!

[need4reebs]

works very well, but results can vary due to whether or not tha person shooting tha marker can walk a pneumatic trigger properly, how well there marker is tuned, and how good of a LPR they have...normal pneumag stuff

yes it was made off the intelli frame specs, so if the after market frame specs were the same then it was a drop in kit for those frames as well

they sold for 105 new....only 40-50 were made by Zap, so if your lucky to find someone selling one hells yeah! i have tha CAD files for the cheater but due to normal pneumag issues they cant be made and sold for profit!? hope that helps!!!

[tolar250]

Tek2974 on MCB is working on some kind of agreement with PTP since they hold a patent that that the cheater would fall under. thread is http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...st-thread.html

[longi]

It's harder to short stroke than the MSV-1/2 version but has a slightly lower ROF which is no bad thing. It's almost perfect but is still needs a couple of tweaks here and there to make so. It's a shame it all went belly up as it was a real contender. If he had continued to develop it it may well have been on par with the D.W. hAIR Trigger that never saw the light of day. It worked with all of the Automag frames available, but as with all these mods there was still a bit of work involved.

[Pneumagger]

works very well, but results can vary due to whether or not tha person shooting tha marker can walk a pneumatic trigger properly, how well there marker is tuned, and how good of a LPR they have...normal pneumag stuff

yes it was made off the intelli frame specs, so if the after market frame specs were the same then it was a drop in kit for those frames as well

they sold for 105 new....only 40-50 were made by Zap, so if your lucky to find someone selling one hells yeah! i have tha CAD files for the cheater but due to normal pneumag issues they cant be made and sold for profit!? hope that helps!!!

Thanks for the info.
For $105, I might as well just do my frame rebuild with the good old MSV-2, MEV-2 & MPA-3 spare parts I already have. The old pneumag has been in pieces in a shoebox (literally) for a few years. I'm thinking about putting it back together to sell it to someone who would use it. I have a pair of custom .45s on order and I'm going to need an ammo reloading setup.

You should email those files to me, just in case... My email ID might be joeymac33 and might be hosted @ gmail.

[Pneumagger]

It's harder to short stroke than the MSV-1/2 version but has a slightly lower ROF which is no bad thing. It's almost perfect but is still needs a couple of tweaks here and there to make so. It's a shame it all went belly up as it was a real contender. If he had continued to develop it it may well have been on par with the D.W. hAIR Trigger that never saw the light of day. It worked with all of the Automag frames available, but as with all these mods there was still a bit of work involved.

I always thought the real breakthrough would come with a mechanism that supplied a metered amount of air instead of a simlple on/off. That would alleviate the chuffing and short stroking of "sloppy" trigger pulls. There is no debounce on these kinds of triggers nd alot of electro shooters need to relearn how to pull and FULLY release the trigger between shots with consistency.

I gave some thought to it thinking that a small NC on/off valve releasing the pilot air to an unbalanced poppet (like secondary mini MQ valve) could act as a means to deliver a fixed volume of air consistently before closing. That would negate bad trigger timing since the little MQ wouldn't close until the tiny secondary reservoir was sufficiently depleted. Mechanical dwell! The tiny reservoir's pressure and volume would determine dwell. As long the shooter didn't outshoot the valve it should work consistently. A minor improvement even over this might be using a balanced inline on/off with only spring return so that the trigger pull weight becomes adjustable and independent of the pneumatic operating pressure.
But that's all the further I ever got with all that... just random thoughts. At some point, it starts to get so convoluted and complex (all just to activate the ACTUAL automag valve) that you just bypass everything and simply start designing a new Automag valve. A project which I started and never got around to finishing past initial tests- lol. The parts really just need anodized and high pressure tested.

Someday when I get home, I'll finish that custom EP valve automag, haha.

[BTAutoMag]

oh, and welcome back

[need4reebs]

Thanks for the info.
For $105, I might as well just do my frame rebuild with the good old MSV-2, MEV-2 & MPA-3 spare parts I already have. The old pneumag has been in pieces in a shoebox (literally) for a few years. I'm thinking about putting it back together to sell it to someone who would use it. I have a pair of custom .45s on order and I'm going to need an ammo reloading setup.

You should email those files to me, just in case... My email ID might be joeymac33 and might be hosted @ gmail.

haha...yeah thats wat a few people have said...i should email mail them pics? i did that with guy tech the one that started these interest threads and well that was a joke?! it seems once the CADs are sent communication goes right out tha window?

[OPBN]

Curious about the MEV-2. Where does this fit into the picture?

[Pneumagger]

Miniature Exhaust Valve #2... also called a QEV. Goes on ram, or in this case the MPA-3, to exhaust the cylinder more quickly.

[OPBN]

Right, I got what it is, but exactly where would it be installed? Would you typcially just open up the exhaust hole on the MPA3 and screw it in there? Does this make the ram faster?

[Pneumagger]

Air flows into the square part (it's female threaded #10-32 for a barb) and out of the male threaded #10-32. Screw the output thread into the back of the MPA-3 ram. The ram can now exhaust back through the MEV-2 directly at the ram much more quickly than all the ram's air having to feed back through the hose and bleed out of that little hole in teh MSV-2 when you let go of the trigger.

No different than using a pair of QEVs on an autococker ram - it just allows the MPA-3 to reset more quickly.

[OPBN]

Air flows into the square part (it's female threaded #10-32 for a barb) and out of the male threaded #10-32. Screw the output thread into the back of the MPA-3 ram. The ram can now exhaust back through the MEV-2 directly at the ram much more quickly than all the ram's air having to feed back through the hose and bleed out of that little hole in teh MSV-2 when you let go of the trigger.

No different than using a pair of QEVs on an autococker ram - it just allows the MPA-3 to reset more quickly.

Due to space constraints in most frames, wouldn't this make it necessary to move the MPA3 farther down? Got any pics of a setup with this in it?

[Pneumagger]

Space can be milled behind the trigger in most frame so you can put the QEV right into the back of the MPA3 (Logic frames are already wide enough there due to wider trigger channel), or the QEV can be put under the MPA3 if you plug the back of the MPA-3 and machine a new input hole on the bottom, or the QEV can be put inline with the hose. Any time you put the QEV between the MPA and the MSV, you just leave the lever arm of the MSV longer/uncut. Here are some old pics of suff I made for people years ago. I also added a bunch of random cool photos I enjoy. They are all clickable thumbnails


Bottom tapped MPA on left (with only a barb in it at the time) modified for direct bottom barb or QEV input.
Dircect rear input on right (this one comes off the back of the MPA-3 and has a hose barb added to the side of the modified QEV)


August 2006 Mag of the Month containing that assembly:


QEV inline with the hose:


Sleeper pneumag with the above picured MPA, MSV, QEV, and LPR next to a real MAC SMG (acronyms are fun!)
((OK... I lied. I just wanted to post a picture of a machine gun in a paintball thread))


My current sleeper pneumag I want to put new pneumatics into which was the originally the topic of this massively derailed thread.


Random electropneumatic I did on a spare Logic frame Lenny just happened to have lying around.
Sidenote: I recently found this in my parts bin not long ago... if anyone knows if Lenny's still around, tell him I have his frame (lol).


Random Electro frame put together in another UMF (man, logic frames were just the best!).


Random spool gun I designed like 6 years ago and machined to fit on mag parts. It worked decent. My goal was a simplified SFT
After building it Behemoth said to me, "Dude, it's like an FEP quest". "FEP Quest? WTF is that?" was my response.
I googled the FEP Quest and raged - lol.


A pair of 7075 aluminum PCP Valve automag valves... (one compatible for LVL 10 and the other LVL 7).
The poppet cycles at low pressures, but I'll get them anodized and tested at full pressure someday.


Well that was fun. I haven't dug that deep into my photobucket for awhile.

[BTAutoMag]

I want to know more about those valves. Bump your old thread.