EMAGs in the real world?

[mpsd]

I recommend the complete opposite -- buy a completely unremarkable gun and just go ahead and play competitively with it.

Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?



clocked, lol.

I think he meant he doesn't intend to play a tourney of some sort, like I did when I first mentioned I played the Brazilian PB Cup back in 2006. Just that.

[GoatBoy]

I wonder if a large chunk of this discussion could be avoided if you guys just decided to stop thinking in terms of "classic" vs whatever.

Imagine if calling stuff "classic" was meaningless and the idea was purged from all your minds.

What would you have left to discuss?

Overall I'm leaning heavily towards Emag. I'm never going to play competitively...might as well have something funky in my hands right?

I recommend the complete opposite -- buy a completely unremarkable gun and just go ahead and play competitively with it.

Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?



clocked, lol.

[mpsd]

@MPSD: That looks interesting. How did the CF tube wear over the long term? Was it attached to anything or just trapped between the remnants of the ULE body and the valve?

And that setup clocked in at 2lb even? without a barrel?

**why is "c-l-o-c-k-e-d" censored? Seems a touch aggresive on the nanny software....being as it's a pretty common and benign term in technical circles. ...oh...is it locked that gets the face?

The CF tube is held in place by a small strech of aluminum under it with an o-ring, the front of the original body (which is held by a bolt) and the valve. It's pretty sturdy.

As for the weight, I remember it was really, really close to 2lbs. Maybe just a hint over it as pictured. Note that the CF Deadlywind barrel is super light (like a couple ounces). The AKA feedneck and the DW ASA are ridiculously light as well, even though the NDZ ASA would be a hint lighter.

[2xFast]

@MPSD: That looks interesting. How did the CF tube wear over the long term? Was it attached to anything or just trapped between the remnants of the ULE body and the valve?

And that setup clocked in at 2lb even? without a barrel?

**why is "c-l-o-c-k-e-d" censored? Seems a touch aggresive on the nanny software....being as it's a pretty common and benign term in technical circles. ...oh...is it locked that gets the face?

[Patron God of Pirates]

don't all triggering systems mechanical or otherwise interpret the intent of the shooter, and then do the dirty work of shooting for them? isnt a trigger simply a device for indicating to the gun that you want to fire?

not really a technical question, really a philosophical one.

Also, bull **** on the threatened to be sued thing. I have been threatened with being sued by at least 3 different paintball companies, two of them on multiple occasions, and in legal documents. never stopped me from publishing everything i have.

I agree that it is a philisophical question. But if the trigger mechanism is programed to report false signals just because it is detecting that the intent of the shooter is to shoot really fast, should we just abandon the pretense. These guns out shoot the person pulling the trigger.

Your motives in you research are intirely different than mine. I intended too demonstrate that these systems were cheating in order to bring a ic free electronic trigger to market. The company I shared my results with politely reminded me how litigious this industry is. They indicated that it would be less expensive for them to sue me into silence than to fight the suits they would face if they tried to push the product I was offering.by attempting to have current systems declared tourny illegal.

[cockerpunk]

People think of a switch pull as a digital 1 or 0. This is not the case. Software can and does set a threshold for the voltage pull at which a signal is considered a 1 or a 0. Example: the micro controller I used to set up my switch listener defaults to 1.5v on a 5v (in actuality a 3.5v) pin. Above 1.5v and it is considered a 1, below, a 0. To date, every electro I have tested (15 so far) reports more signals to the solenoid than signals from the switch. They achieve this by lowering the threshold during higher rates of fire. This listens for switch noise and reports false signals. Further, they all hold multiple shots in queue during high rof. Further they all average out the signals to produce a consistent rof. The last part is IMO a necessity preventing human control interfering with the markers mechanical limitations. The end result is markers that fire more than you pull the trigger, fire when you are not pulling the trigger, and fire only when all of the markers systems are prepared to do so. No need to learn the trigger, software does it for you.

Modern electros do not read trigger pulls to shoot. They read trigger pulls to learn the intent of the shooter so they can handle the dirty work. I can and have proven this. I'm not sharing my results (because the only industry entity that I brought this up to threatened to sue me and I simply don't care enough [and can't afford] to take it that far). I did the testing to validate my theories for my own purposes. If you would like to test it as well I can tell you how. post it.

Further, you don't need empirical data. Logic alone will tell you that "cheating" is the inevitable result of competition among electronic marker manufacturers. It costs tens of thousands of dollars to R&D a new valve/bolt system. It costs about 10 seconds worth of man hours to program your boards to lower the voltage threshold during X cps. And nobody will bust them because the "pro" leagues are owned by the industry. Low cost improvement with zero chance of backlash. Who wouldn't do it?

As far as the RT thing goes. A "response trigger" does what you are talking about. A "runaway trigger" such as a heavily shimmed ULT will shot itself. But a "Reactive Trigger" merely pushes back on your finger. It does not cycle the sear both ways for you. You have to maintain positive pressure against the trigger to cycle it and relax enough between shots to let it push you back. This is 1 pull 1 shot even if it is sickening easy to accomplish. Is it a grey area? Sure. But compared to the egregious cheating being done by the electro's it's nothing.

Bloopers: Yes. In some cases (particularly with a tight bore fit) the shot that chuffed does not even make it out of the barrel at all.

don't all triggering systems mechanical or otherwise interpret the intent of the shooter, and then do the dirty work of shooting for them? isnt a trigger simply a device for indicating to the gun that you want to fire?

not really a technical question, really a philosophical one.

Also, bull **** on the threatened to be sued thing. I have been threatened with being sued by at least 3 different paintball companies, two of them on multiple occasions, and in legal documents. never stopped me from publishing everything i have.

[cockerpunk]

real men don't care about the weight, cause we have things called muscles...

better is a subjective question. Gordon has an opposite opinion, cause he likes to start shtuff. though they are heavier, so what? you can guarantee no chops with a L10. eyes and electronics can go bad, never heard of a L10 going bad. there are certainly cheaper alternatives, but that's like comparing a Chrysler K car or any other mass produced cheap vehicle;Kia, Geo, whatever(the Ion of the paintball world) to a McLaren F1. they are both cars, but somehow most people will pick the F1 over the K car.

plus, its fun to walk onto the field with an emag and show the people not only what a Emag can do, but show them that a gun that is older than a majority of the players can keep up with nothing more than what it started with.

my opinion is to not make excuses for my equipment.

i love mags, cockers, and other terrible guns ... because they are terrible. all the fun that is shooting a classic gun, is because it isn't as good as a modern one. the more we embrace that classic guns are worse, and thats why they are more fun, the better off we will be as a community. the longer we play the appologist game, and continue despite all evidence to contrary that classic guns are "just as good" we doom ourselves, and these great guns, and this great history, to the history books.

credentials:

my collection at one point:



shooting my RT classic at living legends this year:



shooting my karni at living legends last year:



shooting my merlin at local big game:



Angel LCD 2k3 special edition (love this gun):



Epic (really fun gun, sad i sold it):



start ****?

i merely see classic guns for what they actually are. and love them because of it.

[cockerpunk]

"Heavy" is relative. It's on par with other electros of the era in which it was released. If you ever carried an Angel LCD, AKA Excalibur, Shocker 4x4 or Gen-E matrix into a tournament, you won't be shocked by the weight. If you're used to "lugging" around an Ego11 you might be in for a surprise though.

i do still shoot all of these types of guns on a regular basis. bringing up the ego 11 is exactly the point ... modern guns are much much smaller and lighter.

If you actually know how to tune your Level 10 there's no problem with consistent laning; it's very simple to do and anyone on here would be happy to help walk you through it. If that's too tough for you, you can use literally any of the electronic loaders on the market in tandem with an L7 or tuned-down L10 you will also be fine. There are very few situations that call for over 14bps, a speed that any loader sold these days (other than maybe one of the many lemon V-Maxs I've seen) can keep up with reliably.

there will always be a skip.

and all loaders skip.

No denying that almost every electronic marker is more efficient (I only get about 1600 shots off a 88/45), and you'd want to get your board flashed to XMOD so that you have the necessary modes - those would be my only concerns when it comes to staying competitive. In the sense that newer markers are lighter in weight, that's completely subjective. I'd like to hear what else "every way" entails.

well we already covered eyes, size and, weight, and you bring up efficiency ... what other variables do you really need?

my emag was Xmod

^^^^

[mpsd]

Yeah, I started a similiar one over at MCB. Thought I'd try over there for some possibly less biased answers

MPSD do you have any pictures of your 2lb setup? I'd be particularly interested in the CF battery pack. Was it just a housing change or did you switch over to lithium ion batteries as well?

I think I've seen a couple of the CF bodies...looks like they hacked off the non critical section of the ULE body and replaced it with a CF tube...is that about the long and the short of it?

Overall I'm leaning heavily towards Emag. I'm never going to play competitively...might as well have something funky in my hands right?

...now I just need to put the cash together.

Here are some pics of it:



And here is how it looks like today:


The battery pack was custom made for me at a car tuning shop here in Brazil, years ago. The battery itself is a custom one but not a lithium ion one. Weights the same as the original.

[GRimm]

Its funny, I mainly play with my emag or my xmag and I am almost always shooting in mech mode (every now and then I'll flip it to E and have some fun, albeit rarely). What I love the most about them is how they feel. Every time I pick them up it just feels perfect in my hands. I love they way the feel when shooting, the way they sound, they way they look. I love the attention they bring as well, passing people and hearing them talking to each other, "Sweet an xmag!" or my favorite "what the heck it that?". As long as I play paintball I will be shooting an e/xmag

[blackdeath1k]

Heck. I don't even use an emag. I go older than that. I use a 97 automagrt that I bought back then. Its been upgraded to a Ygrip and a foamie L7 bolt vs the hard nose. I do not have a killer input pressure for reactivity. And I play against mostly GEOS when I play. Not felt outgunned yet. There's are lighter. But if your in shape that shouldn't be an issue until day 2 or 3 of a scenario. That's the only time I really wished it was lighter. Get what makes you wet every time you play with it.

[2xFast]

Yeah, I started a similiar one over at MCB. Thought I'd try over there for some possibly less biased answers

MPSD do you have any pictures of your 2lb setup? I'd be particularly interested in the CF battery pack. Was it just a housing change or did you switch over to lithium ion batteries as well?

I think I've seen a couple of the CF bodies...looks like they hacked off the non critical section of the ULE body and replaced it with a CF tube...is that about the long and the short of it?

Overall I'm leaning heavily towards Emag. I'm never going to play competitively...might as well have something funky in my hands right?

...now I just need to put the cash together.

[mpsd]

[Spider-TW]

I love paintball guns and am a giant gun whore. I love them all.. Dye, PE, Smart Parts, Wgp, WDP, Mac Dev, Bob Long, Empire, Zodiac ect ect ect (yes I own or have owned them all.. ) I ALWAYS, ALWAYS gravitate back to either my Warped Xmag or my E90.

I haven't owned them all, but it's just as bad when I set out to design my own marker, go round with this or that, and then conclude that I have basically ended up with a mag again. New markers are more integrated and lighter, but both of those features have their trade offs that I'm not sold on.

[El Zilcho]

Bloopers: Yes. In some cases (particularly with a tight bore fit) the shot that chuffed does not even make it out of the barrel at all.

I can attest to this, I had a poorly tuned LX and a .678 Eigelbarrel, did not make for a good combination.