Why Can't Mags Shoot Flat?

[manike]

Perception...

You know when I am shooting my cocker I often think it is shooting low as compared to my RT and I am always rechecking the velocity... It's just my perception though. I think my cocker arcs more and doesn't have the range of my RT... I think my Sov II has the greatest range (oh and it does...)

I once did a demonstration to some friends where we mounted an RT and a cocker and fired each and tried to decide which shot flatter... no-one could agree. I'm used to how I hold and site my RT so thought it flatter... other used to the cocker were more sure of that gun.

I then put up a board and set it so we just shot over the top of it. People still couldn't agree on the trajectory up to that point... so I made another board so that we just shot over one and just under the next... people started to get my point... we then looked at where it hit a target and allowing for the consistency of the guns guess what? They hit in the the same area. Even though no one thought when they were using their own perception, we actually proved they have the same trajectories regardless of what we thought I opened a few minds that day.

With the exception of guns that cause spin and loft a ball(flatline and Z-bodied guns) they will have the same trajectory if they are reasonably similar firing conditions etc.

The answer and reason to your question is 'the human mind' that's it.

Our minds are designed to and want to see patterns. If we think something then our mind tries to see that in what we do. That's why we are biased and an aweful means to measure anything (ask any detective). If you want to 'see' why one of your guns shoots flatter than another then don't 'look for it' you need to 'measure it'.

There are two ways in the real world to make your gun shoot flatter than an opponents. 1) run it with a higher velocity 2) use heavier paintballs.

So why does my Sov II have a flatter trajectory and greater range? because it is so consistent and reliably so. I tend to run my cocker and RT at about 285fps to allow for the occasionaly 'blip' that they both get since I don't want to go hot. I run my sov II at 296fps. It's so consistent I don't worry about it going hot. Since the energy is in relation to the square of the velocity this means the projectile fired from the Sov has significantly more energy and thus will go further.

The distance (and also how flat it's trajectory is) that a marker will get at 295 over 285 is greater than one at 285 would get over one at 275.

manike

[Tunaman]

I commend you FATMAN! I have never heard it put that way. You MAY be on to something. But, alas, I am sure TK has already toyed with this idea.

[raehl]

Gah!

The arcs are the same. I did get a good laugh out of whoever said resistence slows the ball down so gravity can work better when the ball is going slower or something. That was a riot.

Rule #1 of paintball: There are lots of people running around with theories that are just plain wrong that they still firmly believe because they've "seen" it. These include some pretty hefty paintball honchos who have been around the block a few times. People even let them spread their misinformation in paintball magazines and the like. It doesn't change the fact that people who were clueless rednecks when they got into the sport 15 years ago and started a paintball company are still clueless rednecks now. It isn't helped by the fact that everyone wants to justify why the marker *THEY* bought is better than the marker someone *ELSE* bought. (Frankly, I've shot a little bit of everything at one point or another, and I can tell you that a paintball coming out of a barrel is a paintball coming out of a barrel no matter WHAT marker you use.)

One marker doesn't shoot any more or less flat than another, unless you've got some funky spin-inducing barrel. Period. You can believe otherwise because you've "seen" it, or big paintball head honcho X told you, but you're still wrong.

- Chris

[nutz]

now i have heard this to and i think feeltheRT is very close to how this works... my theory is not just kick but also feel of the gun now the cocker is very light and small so that may be another thing...

will my emag and freak, i dont get much arc at all... i shoot at 250 fps and i really dont notice an arc, with my old retro mag i noticed more of an arc but i dont know why... maybe cause that had less of a solid feel

i guess lighter + solid = flat tragectory

[manike]

FatMan, Prove that your mag has more of a curve...















Just think of the benefits! You could now drop balls onto players hiding behind bunkers... no where would be safe..

Everytime I try and prove this 'advantage' with my mags I lose and show that they are just the same as any other 'lesser' marker...

Think of the hype advantage we could have if just someone could prove beyond reasonable doubt that mag's have a more curved trajectory thus allowing you to shoot down behind bunkers...

manike

[nutz]

Originally posted by manike
You could now drop balls onto players hiding behind bunkers...

manike

actually manike my friend did this with his angel a few weeks ago... the kid was sitting a little bit back from the bunker and it was kind of a long shot... the ball droped right on top of his head!!! lol it really works

another thing funny happend like that, i chopped a ball in my emag and right after i cleaned it, it was still painty and curvey and my angel friend made a move on me... i saw him right when he ducked into cover and shot and the ball i shot curved around the side of his bunker and gogged him!!!

lol

curves rule!!

[Butterfingers]

Re: Spin and stuff

I suppose you want me to explain that too...

ok ill play your little game you rouge!

Trajectory pretty much has to do with velocity and gravity. Nothing else. Backspin just cancels out some of the gravity force vector. Thats it! ask your teacher!

If you have an Automag RT video there is high speed video in the intro there is no significant spin through a straighbore barrel.

[tysonmachado]

I noticed something pretty cool last time I was playing with my retro-mag. I had acidentally shot my barrel plug just before a game was starting and thus had paint in my barrel without any time to clean it out. I was using a boomstick so it wouldn't shoot completely clean. I notice when firing a string of paint that each ball was picking up a slightly different spin than the one before it so that I was firing a cone of paintballs instead of a line. How's that for accuracy by volume!
And here's a thought about the mythical automag arc. I read somewhere that for some reason automaggers tend to use barrels with a loose bore more often than barrels with a tight bore. I don't make any claims as to the truth of this statement. But if the bore of the barrel is larger than the paintball, the paintball would be likely to make more contact with the bottom of the barrel than the sides or top due to gavity pulling down. This might cause a very slight frontspin which could cause the paintball to arc a little more. So if automaggers are using a looser bore fit there could be a tendancy for a more pronounced arc which would be attributed unfairly to the automag. Given identical barrel to paint match and identical velocity there is no reason one marker would shoot flatter than another.

[shartley]

These include some pretty hefty paintball honchos who have been around the block a few times. People even let them spread their misinformation in paintball magazines and the like. It doesn't change the fact that people who were clueless rednecks when they got into the sport 15 years ago and started a paintball company are still clueless rednecks now.

[cphilip]

FatMan, you are now officialy nuts. Completely brain washed by the multitudes of Cockernuts out at the field.

You want the real truth? Ok...The reason your Mag now shoots in a more pronounced arch is directly proportional to your age. If you still had your Typhoon it too would be shooting in a more pronounced arch now. How many times have I told you to put a Viagra in your tank? I mean your elves are now experiencing erectile disfunction. You think you got problems! Didn't you see me have to hold my Marker almost stright to the sky to bunker that guy last Sunday? Ho boy!

[beam]

"You want answers?!?"
"I think I'm entitled to answers!"
"You want ANSWERS?!?!"
"I WANT THE TRUTH!!!!"
"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!"

case closed.

[Bailey]

IF you all want to test this theory about the mag barrels bench mount a 68 and an sfl beside each other ....sfls use cocker threaded barrels.
Just a quick thought

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by shartley

If trajectory will be the same for all straight barrels (as one member insinuated), why do all classic firearms have straight barrels yet their trajectories differ? How come some have a slight rise before the fall? How come some have a more pronounced arch? And how does this, or does it not, relate to paintball markers?

Because velocities differ for diffrent ammunition types. The faster a bullet is the flatter the trajectory.

[soilent green]

turn up the velocity

I once thought the same thing this always comes up it is simple a ball of the same weight and size moveing at the same velocity will have the same trejectory don't believe the hype

[FatMan]

Rouge Nuts!

OK, I don't know what a "rouge" is but I swear I haven't been wearin' no make-up! I might be nuts but I ain't no girlie-man!

Manike, I drop paint on people all the time. I guess its proven!

Butterfingers you are WRONG! Trajectory is also affected by wind, humidity, atmospheric pressure, and by the spin of the ball (which can create lift or drag on one side of the ball or another). Anyway, spin was the thing I was worried about.

Actually MY theory is the bit about the average size of an Automag barrel. See, since blow-forward markers don't suffer roll-out, on the average more Mag owners have a barrel too big for their paint. Cocker owners learn real quick to use a tight barrel. Thus if you checked hundreds of Mags and Cockers, on average the Mags would seem less consistent, less accurate, and to have more of an "arc". If however, you use the same barrel with the same paint at the same velocity in the same environment, they should, in fact, be pretty much the same.

Shartley, that's because in a "real" gun all that marketing hype really matters!

Phil, I'll thank you not to tell the world about my flacid member! My hemeroids are one thing, but can't a guy have at least a LITTLE privacy! (and it IS little I'm afraid) Sheesh!

And Beam, if I can't handle the truth, the truth can't be handled and probably isn't worth handling. Truth is just the theory behind reality and I AM REALITY!

Further Deponent Sayeth Not!

FatMan