Bring Back Shake N' Bake! (Rant)

[ghost flanker]

Ok, hear me out. A lot of paintball players (myself included) occasionally whine about the high rates of fire typically associated with electropneumatics and ramping set at, like 25 bps on today's walk-on fields. We complain about how it discourages movement in favor of more spray and pray. It provides a lopsided advantage to players with the most disposable income. It presents a safety concern. And worst of all, it scares the hell out of little kids and first time players on the receiving end of these monsters while they're armed with rental Tippmanns. A lot of them never come back because huddling inside a bunker that's being hit with 25+ paintballs a second just plain sucks. I see a lot of kids in that situation, especially girls, just stick their rental guns out and surrender simply because of the opposing player's overwhelming rate of fire. They're scared and they're done. Then we wonder why paintball isn't more popular.

Idk, maybe this is just the old man coming out of me, but as much as I enjoy paintballing, it really was more fun back in the day when everyone shot a mech. But every once in a while nowadays, I'll play a game at a field that happens to be 100% mechanical guns because it started sprinkling, forcing all the electro-pneumatic players to pack up quick and go home, then everyone left suddenly has a blast (no pun intended). Makes me wish fields would just ban electros so everyone can keep having this much fun. But you can't do that - it'd be completely unfair towards electro owners who paid upwards of $1000 plus for their gun. It'd also be far too difficult to visually tell the difference between mechs and electros. And it wouldn't stop high rates of fire from bouncing reactive triggers, either. So what to do? I say let 'em bring their electros ramped to 50 bps to walk-on games. Ramp them even higher than that if you can! Anybody got a fully automatic gatlin paintball gun? Bring that, too. But make sure your photo eyes are working properly because you will be leaving your Dye Rotors and Empire Prophecies in the car. This is a SHAKE AND BAKE/ROCK AND COCK ONLY field!

I don't know about the rest of you but I would love to play at a field that enforced a gravity-fed hoppers only rule and disallowed force feeding systems, or at least restricted players with force-feed loaders to their own games away from everyone else. If these guys want to shoot their electros with us, they gotta dust off their old hoppers. Best way to solve the perceived problem of unreasonable rates of fire, I think. Anybody else feel the same way? Or should I just quit my whinin' and go find a pump game somewhere?

[going_home]

I dont think the hopper matters, any hopper electronic or not works.

If all you can bring on the field is whatever your hopper holds, thats what we always called hopper ball.

Limited paint is pretty fun, it levels the playing field somewhat.

[Nobody]

Used to play hopper ball. It doesn't matter if you shoot a pump at 3bps, or an electro at 30bps. What you bring in your hopper is what you git. When you're done, you can stay in or leave to reload. Simple and effective.

Now i blame the refs of the groups for not recognising that they brought some wolfs(players that over shoot players) to play with the lambs(field rentals and lower level players). Some people do care. The more successful fields do want the returning people(that's how they stay in business) and will put the more advanced people in higher groups.

I do remember playing in a walk on group. Using my FS8, it was bouncey and easily 15bps. After one game, put that away and used my classic mag. There the field didn't recognize but as a responsible player i did. I might have pulled out my pump but there was a mix of mostly walkons but a few experienced people. There i would go after them first, the clean up the lambs.

So do not tell me that i need to use something i don't even have anymore. The first safe guard should be you. If its not you, then tell the refs. If the refs don't do anything, tell the owner. If the owner does nothing, then demand your money back and never go there again.

[BigEvil]

Viva la revi!

[cougar20th]

Viva la revi!

Still use the revi I bought in 1998. Upgraded it from 9V to 12V? and a xboard years ago. Its the only hopper Ive ever really used.
Tryed a halo. Instantly blended paint and jammed. Never used it again.

[vintage]

so far my only complaint on the halo is the weight. I like revy's so much I have 6 or 7 of them and the parts to build many more.

I did use a halo at LL7 last year on my rt classic, every time I looked at it is was empty

[ghost flanker]

To going_home;
I can't say I agree that the type of hopper/loader doesn't matter. If a gravity fed hopper cannot exceed 8 to 9 BPS, then it stands to reason that an electro pneumatic marker equipped with said hopper would also be limited to 8 to 9 BPS, no matter how capable the marker itself is.
Hopper ball can also be fun, but I'd still like to see my idea in practice.

To Nobody;
A skinny bald guy in glasses and a robe once said, "Be the change you want to see in the world", and that's certainly the first step to instigate change. I applaud your sense of sportsmanship and restraint in switching to a lower ROF gun. However, the 10 or so wolves playing on every field I go to seem to enjoy their DM12s more than sportsmanship. There are several paintball parks in my area, but they all routinely mix the lambs and the wolves together. Unfortunately, that's the norm. They all disallow full-auto markers, but seem to have zero problem with ramping and allow all but the most blatant abuse of it. And I don't think a single one of those fields has any rules restricting high ROF markers from playing against rentals. The low attendance at these fields makes following such a rule difficult to stick to consistently. I'd change it if I could, but I'm only one guy, and I enjoy paintballing way too much to boycott every park within driving distance. But I'll try your way minus the boycotting.
By the way, what self-respecting paintball player doesn't have at least one $5 gravity fed hopper laying around? How dare you, sir, lol. But fear not, oh skeptical one! In my hypothetical paintball park with its trusty shake-and-bake only policy, they offer every walk-on the opportunity to rent one hopper in exchange for a small deposit. We all win.

To BigEvil;
Long live revies, indeed. Revies and reloaders are my go-to loaders. However, I must remove myself from all bias for the good of the group. Practically speaking, I felt it would be too problematic to make an exception for agitating loaders. In a crowd of 30, it'd be difficult to visually tell them apart from force fed loaders, so they gotta go. But could I interest you in a basic hopper for a $6 deposit?

[going_home]

Viva la revi!

I like my Spire 260.....

Thought about mixing in some hopper ball in at Tunaball or Vintage day ?

[Cyco-Dude]

i think for electros with eyes, ok fine, but for mechs like a 'mag or 'cocker, or electros that don't have eyes / anti-chop, no thanks. fortunately it's just not a problem at the field i play at. at another field that gets more walk-ons using electros, the refs do ok to split them all up so it's at least even. also, who is shooting at 25 bps at your field? they can't enforce lower bps?

anyway, there are some fields are like you describe that use hoppers only. whatever it takes to make it fun, i guess.

[Nobody]

I like my Spire 260.....

Thought about mixing in some hopper ball in at Tunaball or Vintage day ?

I think it will depend on Saturday or Saturday night. On how much is drunk and how much paint is left.

[WholemealDrop]

I bring 3 guns to the field every time regardless of my planned style of play that day. I bring a pump, mech, and an electro so depending on my mood and other players I can switch it up. If it is mostly renters and casual players I'll run a mech or pump. If there are lots of speedballers who are being dicks about unloading an entire hopper every time they see someone move I'll bust out my electro and blast them right back. I also make it a habit of listening to the less advantaged players to see how they feel about the day and let refs know.

My old field closed down because they couldn't keep people coming back except in private groups or Groupon deals. It got to the point where only around 10-15 walk on players were showing up which meant there was only 1 field to play on: the mock speedball field. And it just got old getting blasted at near full auto speeds against the same guys over and over again. Most of the fields there were big wooded areas that required semi decent accuracy and normally a few balls to clear the path for the ball that will hit them. Rentals and casual players could only really get shots in open space. Rest of the guys with high ROF guns would just dump paint till the player called themselves out, whether they were actually hit or just fear from getting pummeled by the onslaught of paint.

The bigger thing that needs to happen in paintball isn't innovation of guns and hoppers, etc. It need innovation in its players to grow up and respect each other. I don't have anything against players who want a reliable gun that shoots ball on ball consistently every time. What I do have against players are those who think they need to shoot 10-15BPS full PSP ramp at every player whether they are experienced or a renter. I'm ashamed to say I'm one of maybe two or three people on my team that knows restraint when playing with lower levels. I know that 1-3 balls will hit just as well as a string of 20.

[JonM]

Viva la revi!

The only times I don't use my 12v Revi is when I'm playing stock class or playing with my T8. I bought it back in the '90s and I've seen no need to upgrade it since.

[zulubravo44]

I don't know if it's a problem, but one thing I've noticed of late is that there seem to be quite a few teenage players that are toting around pimped out electros. This demographic has never been the hallmark of restraint in any context, much less paintball. At one of my local fields, I've seen the teenage refs actually switch out of their reffing gear to jump into a game of almost entirely rental players on an poorly lit indoor field. You can imagine the scenario: a bunch of new players shooting dirty model 98s while wearing smudged, single pane masks up against a ref shooting a mini and wearing i4s or the like. It's frustrating to watch, especially when it's staff members going out of their way to thrash new players. Needless to say, most people I talk to have only been there once, and they won't become loyal customers for sure.

It sort of gets to a larger point about the other aspects relating to younger/newer players. One of the biggest disadvantages to me is not the hopper/harness capacity or even the variation in ROF, but it's the added field awareness of having a functional mask. I don't know why they even make single pane/non-thermal lenses anymore, and fields should really spend a bit of time learning what was positive and negative about a new player's experience. If one were to hold a focus group of new players, I would wager that all of them would primarily complain about how a fogging/dirty/hard to see through mask was the biggest impediment to the amount of fun they had. ROF, hopper capacity and all the other issues are secondary to being able to see what is going on around oneself. Furthermore, there have been a number of times I've yelled at new players for lifting their mask in the middle of a game to wipe the inside of their lens. It just seems like a waste of everyone's time to give new players safety gear that is effectively useless. Sure, it protects them, but they can't function when they wear it.

Edit: When I first saw this thread title, I thought it was going to be about the old at-home powdercoating kits you put in your oven.

[cockerpunk]

the real solution to this problem, is split player groups. recently around here the two indoor fields (only places you want to play in the twin cities in February) have been running what they call "advanced open play"

so they have open play on saturday. but they tell the experienced tournament players, don't come to that. thats for beginners. on sunday, thats advanced open play, for tournament players and such. so, you get a natural divide and separation between folks serious about competitive modern paintball, and folks not so much. its sometimes tough to have these two groups achieve "critical mass" on any given day, but if you advertise it as such, from the get go ... they had 40 advanced open players last sunday ...

[cougar20th]

the real solution to this problem, is split player groups. recently around here the two indoor fields (only places you want to play in the twin cities in February) have been running what they call "advanced open play"

so they have open play on saturday. but they tell the experienced tournament players, don't come to that. thats for beginners. on sunday, thats advanced open play, for tournament players and such. so, you get a natural divide and separation between folks serious about competitive modern paintball, and folks not so much. its sometimes tough to have these two groups achieve "critical mass" on any given day, but if you advertise it as such, from the get go ... they had 40 advanced open players last sunday ...

Interesting idea, But what if a "advanced" player cant make it on a Sunday and shows up on a Saterday?