Where did AGD go wrong?

[BigEvil]

The best part about all of those smart part offering, the autococker platform, and the mag platform is something that they all have in common and something that is greatly missing in the paintball industry today. That is a vast aftermarket potential. Retailers do not make money on markers. They make money on parts and accessories. What 3 markers had a wider aftermarket path than the Imp, Cocker and mag?

YOu can spin anything else with marketing propaganda that you want. Retailers will say anything to get someone to buy something that they can make money on.

[Spider-TW]

The best part about all of those smart part offering, the autococker platform, and the mag platform is something that they all have in common and something that is greatly missing in the paintball industry today. That is a vast aftermarket potential. Retailers do not make money on markers. They make money on parts and accessories. What 3 markers had a wider aftermarket path than the Imp, Cocker and mag?

YOu can spin anything else with marketing propaganda that you want. Retailers will say anything to get someone to buy something that they can make money on.

There's two ways to support aftermarkets. One is to not change your base design every year, so that there is a quantity of the same base product to supply and calendar time for the aftermarket to catch up. The second is "partnerships" where you bring the secondary suppliers in during design, but that obviously breeds its own difficulties.

Which brings up a good point, if you don't update an already good product, someone else will try to update it for you. Anyone can order 1000 Chinese copies and mess up your market. That wasn't a problem too long ago.

In consideration of whole redesigns and innovation, you should consider the long evolution of the automag, matrix and cocker and then look at the metadyne thumper and J4 torque. The Tiberius T15 wasn't a huge redesign but still suffered its own early production problems. Any one set back is not really "a thing", but when you are trying to catch a wave in the market its a big problem. You put stuff together and make it work, then you redesign to make it last and to be producible, then you go back and make it work again, etc.

I agree that any new high end AGD marker probably needs electronics. I shoot mech automags because they are comfortable, not from any dread of electronics or batteries. I just don't see marketing without electronics.

On the other (low) end, what would an AGD splatmaster or nelspot look like? Maybe not low end, but minimal, like a redesign of the Sydarm. A Google IA bot could figure this out.

[oldironmudder]

No, the Xmag didn't loose against those guns, it was unable to compete at the same level.

I used Intimidators for several years & knew them inside & out. What they would do bone stock & if you sat down & tuned them correctly with the right parts. My E-RT, only having messed with it a short time compared to a timmy, I could see it (E/X-mag platform) evolve into a more refined piece of equipment. Honestly it is a better one as far as reliability & simplicity. Only a couple things to "tweak" & **** up.

Not sure if its bleeding over from the other thread or what but if AGD went away from the valve to design a new marker, it wouldnt be a mag, just another agd marker.

[going_home]

what but if AGD went away from the valve to design a new marker, it wouldnt be a mag, just another agd marker.

Thats a pretty good point

[BigEvil]

There's two ways to support aftermarkets. One is to not change your base design every year, so that there is a quantity of the same base product to supply and calendar time for the aftermarket to catch up. The second is "partnerships" where you bring the secondary suppliers in during design, but that obviously breeds its own difficulties.

Which brings up a good point, if you don't update an already good product, someone else will try to update it for you. Anyone can order 1000 Chinese copies and mess up your market. That wasn't a problem too long ago.

In consideration of whole redesigns and innovation, you should consider the long evolution of the automag, matrix and cocker and then look at the metadyne thumper and J4 torque. The Tiberius T15 wasn't a huge redesign but still suffered its own early production problems. Any one set back is not really "a thing", but when you are trying to catch a wave in the market its a big problem. You put stuff together and make it work, then you redesign to make it last and to be producible, then you go back and make it work again, etc.

I agree that any new high end AGD marker probably needs electronics. I shoot mech automags because they are comfortable, not from any dread of electronics or batteries. I just don't see marketing without electronics.

On the other (low) end, what would an AGD splatmaster or nelspot look like? Maybe not low end, but minimal, like a redesign of the Sydarm. A Google IA bot could figure this out.

There have been very few 'performance' upgrades over the years that have actually been improvements on certain guns. Some could not function without them, but people still purchased them and spent the cash on the upgrades. I was more referring to things that normally did not come with (even high end) markers like decent barrels and feednecks. Now, you don't need or want to upgrade any of those things on the cheaper guns. Also, why would you, it's a cheap gun..

[cockerpunk]

Bait in, time to set the hook

You are missing 1 huge aspect of the mag and AGD. The valve is part of the gun, it is almost unibody like a car; in that the valve is part of the structure of the gun. With that it is incredibly hard to stop what you are doing to change in midstream to go an entirely new direction. Looking at those guns of that era, Bob Long kept refining the stacked tube design that he learned off ICD. Dye bought up matrix and everything Gen-E and War Machine(?) had done before, again refining the design. The same with WDP, even though they kept trying different sensors to detect paintballs that either a reflective or breakbeam eyes. SP was the only ones that did change the entire gun, but as far as i know, the development of the SFT could have been years in the making. Whether SP saw that the development path of the old shoebox was basically nil, or they could not compete with the RoF wars with that closed bolt design.

But because you said development, this also goes into the C&D that SP started. Though slow to pick up ground as people didn't or wouldn't believe it, the ominous spectre of that did kill AKA's Viking and Excaliber, force ICD to sell out to Empire then fold paintball activities by 2006, and a few others i can't remember. That more than anything potentially stopped AGD from doing any development to refine or even go a different, possibly a true blow forward electro.

The freestyle was an elegant design but it was as temperamental as an F1 car. The first models had horrendous efficiency but each generation did refine the gun (though the FSP was the basturd step-child that well was a basturd in design and implementation), to the point that if development was not stopped and ICD did get some decent HPRs that could keep up with the gun's potential. (Pssst, there were rumors of Empire planning to use the Freestyle FS8 bolt in the Vanquish, but they chose to go with the more recently acquired SP shocker properties)

So again, like an arch, you just can't focus on the keystone but all of the factors to the one thing. Everyone here in this thread is absolutely correct because most of these people had lived through that era. This is an opinion question, not something you can do a quick "sound byte" for an answer because there are and were so many factors that played major and minor parts. I knew you woikd give your quick, "cut bait & start over" answer because that is who you are. Even that isn't wrong except when considering all the factors in that time.

Oh, about the Xmag loosing to timmys and trixs et al? TK himself said that the programming for the Emag was not that great. He was thoroughly surprised that Lornecash dumped all of the Xmod programming into the stock Emag board. Anyone here can attest, who has had a emag/Xmag with the various AGD programming to how better the Xmod is to waking up the inherent capabilities of said mags. Also, look at those guns, they also had support of aftermarket companies that did make better boards/chips. Tadao, Virtue, regardless of whether they made cheater boards or not, they did give people an option, by choice or even sponsorship.

You can also look at pure gun sponsorships and factory teams. AGD only had a few, even Jax Warriors moved to the cocker. When you loose even that development aspect of actual on field feedback, it is hard for anyone to plan on what the needs are for the gun. Add in that there is a SPECIFIC rule to BAN the RT and other positive force triggers. You are climbing a mountain to even compete.

No, the Xmag didn't loose against those guns, it was unable to compete at the same level.

this doesn't really contain any counterpoint. just posting and typing for the sake of posting and typing.

also, the Xmag did loose. they made what? a thousand and change xmags? even less actually. they made and sold at least 10x that in 2k2 timmies alone.

the Xmag lost.

[Spider-TW]

also, the Xmag did loose. they made what? a thousand and change xmags? even less actually. they made and sold at least 10x that in 2k2 timmies alone.

the Xmag lost.

but by even the year 2000, it was outdated. a wiser course of action would have been to totally revamp the automag valve, ditch backwards compatibility and make a true electro-pnumatic triggered blowforward gun

And (stinky patents aside) you think an AGD electro-spool would be far enough in front of the freestyle and better than a Timmy to warrant a sustainable chunk of the market in mid-2000? What was a high end going for then? ~$1000? Say TK was way ahead of the game. If you offered a DM15 in 2005 for the same relative price and quality, truly a space gun, wouldn't AGD look like Dye or PE today? I honestly don't know how many DM15s were made (or any year for that matter). Would there be a marker that can shoot dimpled paint straight and consistent?

Dye and PE both look to have gone to "horizontal" marketing. The marker is just a piece of their "look good, shoot good" marketing including clothing, soft goods, and items for other sports.

I understand the price, but I don't see the real value ($ wise) or future of a new high end marker. If I see little magic in the last ten years and can't get any new features within reason today, how would you get ahead with the same "fanciness" then? If AGD "won", what would we have now? There's supposed to be an alternate dimension for that, isn't there? It happened, but where are they now?

[cledford]

I believe that Tom truly loved the sport and didn't want to harm it, or others within, with competitive marketing that was based on actual data and scientific analysis that *showed* what was BS and what wasn't. He had the data, the testing apparatus, and the ability to do it - He chose not to. I was literally standing in a backroom workshop with him, and Bob Long, at Pev's old store in Fairfax VA and remember him opening up Bob's personal Intimidator to setup a warp-feed for him to try. While Tom was gracious, you could literally see his perplexity as to the ridiculous design and build of the marker. The stuff AGD produced and sold was light years ahead of everything else on the market from a design and quality perspective. Unfortunately, too many people with disposable income needed to burn it on *something* and no one could design "upgrades" for the mag that produced discernible improvement, or met the quality or tolerances already put out by AGD. This hurt AGD in several ways.

The biggest issue turns out that Mags were over built - actually designed, manufactured, and built to the highest achievable level when released. Sure there were a couple of tweaks over the years - but nothing major. Mags were the "best" marker when the rolled out the door. However, there was a big problem - it is very hard to objectively determine the "best" when launching a ballistically inferior projectile, at a capped velocity, with markers that are by agreement limited to semi-auto only mode of fire. So, it turns out that the cheapest, most crappy markers were competent enough to work in almost all use cases. It is sort of like commuting back and forth to work in a formula 1 race car - even if it street legal, due to restrictions imposed on all, the overbuild provides zero advantage to the average user over the lowest level of equipment.

He could have easily slammed a number of gimmicks and dubious products and companies but didn't. He instead attempted to develop discerning, educated players here to educate the masses at the grass roots level. Unfortunately, nothing turned the tide of the BS marketing that dominated or the "emperor has new cloths" nature of the rubes that (literally) spent year after year being bilked out of their cash for absolutely nothing other than (in most cases) the placebo affect of "spend = I *feel* I'm now better equipped".

-Calvin

[rawbutter]

I don't think mags are overbuilt. Tipmmans are just as bullet-proof (well, almost), but they're still selling well, even the new ones that cost a few hundred dollars.

Nor do I think that mags are especially outdated. There are still plenty of other "old" designs out there that do fine.

I don't even think that mags have to go electronic. Mech markers are having a huge revival right now.

...by 2000, you had AGD mags not chopping paint, an electro versions and maybe other innovations that we all know. Yet, there was a decline in use and visibility. Yes, a lot of that has to do with the fickle nature of paintballers and the disposable cash era, which some companies were issuing guns/models every 2-3 years.

I think this is actually the biggest problem. No new products. At least not on a regular basis. Although...my definition of "new" might be different than yours. Let me explain.

If you look at a profitable paintball company like PE or Tippmann, they are constantly releasing new markers every year or so. Now, these "new" markers might not be all that different than the old ones. But it's still something to advertise. Something for the players to talk about. Something to get up the hype. At the very least, a "new" product reminds the players that the company is still active and working and there for them. It attracts attention and gets people talking and thinking about buying one.

Or take the "new" autocockers that are out there. The Resurrection. The ID custom markers. Again, these aren't a "new" design, but they are still something fresh to talk about and drool over.

AGD, on the other hand, hasn't really released anything new in...what, two decades now? I mean, there's now the XM Automag, and there were those custom anodized markers that got sold a year ago. But there were only a handful of those available. And the basic ULE mag has pretty much been the same forever. The only new stuff is coming from aftermarket guys like Luke, Cougar, X-magterror, etc. Maybe that's enough to keep the die-hard fans happy, but to the average player, all this "new" stuff is hard to find. You have to come here or join a Facebook group. You often have to get your new parts anodized by yourself. You have to jump through all these extra hoops.

And even when a player does find out about Automags and decide to buy one, there's no reason to buy one new. If I'm interested in a PE marker and I'm debating about buying used or new, in that case the new one has a few extra features. Or it's 20 grams lighter. Or it's 10% more efficient on air. Minor changes, I know, but if I want the latest and greatest, it's a clear choice. When buying an Automag, however, the ULE mag on the AGD website is literally the EXACT SAME THING as something I can find on eBay for $200 less.

So, I think the solution is simple. New products. (Again, I'm not saying 100% new. Just different and a little bit better.)

Sell a run of XM mags with all dust black anodizing in 2021.

Make a run with reverse x-valves in 2022.

Start taking some of the most popular aftermarket pieces and commission runs with those parts. Build a run of guns around the MP90 vertical frame for 2023, and maybe offer a T-Rex upgrade so people don't have to buy one from Luke and install it themselves. Build a run in 2024 around the XMT body and EVO foregrip.

As I've said, the change doesn't have to be much. It doesn't even have to be "better." But AGD needs to release something new every year that makes it worth buying something from them instead of eBay. Then people will start talking. Start buying.

[rawbutter]

This is kind of a side-bar to my previous post, but I've actually had an idea for years that seems relevant now.

The Automag C.

The dream is to build a run of custom Automags. No raw parts, and no "parts" even. A complete mag ready to go. The specifics change every once in a while, but here's the basic idea.

• reverse x-valve
• shortened ULE body (like the old Pariah bodies)
• Teth rail, RT length
• MP90 frame
• EVO foregrip
• ultralite barrel
• Nummech ASA
• everything is dust black

Obviously, funding all of this is a big problem. And building just one of these mags would be super expensive. But price-per-unit goes down as you buy more units, right? So build 100. I've got retirement money sitting somewhere earning 5% or so. I can't handle all 100 markers, but I would happily take some money out of the 401K if I could buy 10 of these things, keep one or two, and sell the rest for 25% more than I bought them for. And I'm willing to bet there are a few more investors out there like me.

I know this would be a lot of work for Tim and the others still at AGD, but if they are willing, I bet they could find enough investors to make it work. There's still a lot of faith in the company, and a lot of potential. It just needs a make-over.

[going_home]

I think Tim is doing good job.

Keep up the good work sir !

[Magoman]

What going home said. Thank you Tim for keeping our mags rocking! As to where AGD or Tom Kaye went wrong? Please..... In case y'all haven't noticed, there's a 20 year old forum dedicated to his legacy. Not to mention an even bigger Facebook following.

[Nobody]

What going home said. Thank you Tim for keeping our mags rocking! As to where AGD or Tom Kaye went wrong? Please..... In case y'all haven't noticed, there's a 20 year old forum dedicated to his legacy. Not to mention an even bigger Facebook following.

Ummm, no one is saying Tim isn't doing a fine job. This post was started nearly 4 years ago. It was about the marketplace or being held in the paintball world.

[rawbutter]

Ummm, no one is saying Tim isn't doing a fine job. This post was started nearly 4 years ago. It was about the marketplace or being held in the paintball world.

Lol. Got sucked into another Necro post. Thanks for catching that.

[Magoman]

It really doesn't suprise me that you two would post back to back with each other. But if you're saying I got sucked into a necro post, then how did you get sucked in here?