Does lvl 10 make my Emag obsolete??

[Dragoon]

Good points Manike,

I asked this question not because I'm thinking of mothballing my Emag but to take another look at what's now available. I think that lvl 10 is a revolutionary step for the Mag. I think it changes mags placement within the marker spectrum.

Not just new mags either. The truly stunning part about lvl 10 is it's retro-fittable to all the mags already produced and in circulation.

Like I mentioned in the post on Paintball nation about W.A.S. I think the mag has become a much better option for feild rentals. With lvl 10 it's so easy on paint that feild owners you can offer cheaper previously unshootable paint. As a player I'm not sure I'd like this, but to a feild owner it's very appealing.

I remember talking to a good friend (who also happens to own a couple of paintball feilds) a couple of years back about the 6-pak. He pointed out how amazing it was at the time, but that it brought about it's own downfall. Back when tournaments were trying to hold onto the rule of only allowing 12 grams and no CA the 6 pack became the ultimate in 12 gram quick change. It was so fast it blurred the line between 12 gram play and CA play. This eventually lead to CA being allowed in tournaments because there was so little difference between the sources of air (at that point that they relented to growing CA trend). Now this may or may not be true. As far as I know it's just speculation on his part. But it certainly fits. And even if it's absolutly wrong, it raises some good questions.

So armed with the idea that the 6-pak made it's self obsolete, and thinking about the lvl 10 and my reasons for buying the Emag.... You can kind of see where I was going. I think the lvl 10 mod will have more of an impact on mags and AGD than any other single development since the 6-pak and retro valve.

A mechanical anti-chop device. Wow! Truly revolutionary.

Anyone have any thoughts on my spewing?

Douglas.

PS This is not blind devotion to AGD on my part. I beleive in function over form. In the case of lvl 10 I don't think it can be promoted too much.

[Hexis]

I can kinda see what you are trying to get at, but I have to say I don't agree. The EMag offers features above and beyond the RT or Automag. Now across the board we have an additional feature. The emag has never handled paint any differently than an RT. There was a limited ACE deployment. I see four levels or product, with some different offerings within each level (prob a bad word for it, can't think of anything else)

Automag (also Minimag)
RT (Pro/classic)
EMag (SS Body)
Extreme EMag (C&C, SFL, non milled)

At each level you get a whole new set of features. Level 10 compatibility is across the board.

[Dragoon]

Agreed Hexis,

But I think the gaps between the markers have been narrowed by lvl 10. I think all the markers would now be better, but the improvement is more substantial at the lower (mag & minimag) levels.

Douglas

[shartley]

[manike]

Originally posted by Dragoon
A mechanical anti-chop device. Wow! Truly revolutionary.

Not quite that revolutionary. Cockers sold for years on the capability to fine tune the bolt force down to a level that they wouldn't chop. The e-Matrix did the same with the reg controlling the force pushing the bolt closed.

Shartley, I agree that level 10 isn't needed for all mags, and that it's rare for some mags to chop. The fact remains though that it was possible to chop with such mags if you were shooting at a bad angle or if your loader couldn't keep up. You had to take better care, with trigger technique and other factors to avoid chopping. Now you don't need to worry anywhere near as much.

I've quite happily run my RT with very dodgy hopper batteries, I would never have risked it before. My RT wouldn't chop with good batteries and loader and good trigger technique, but It would if any of those slipped. Now it just won't chop even when I try to force it. It was a good gun before but it's at another level now. Level 10.

Previously when I lent out my RT people would always end up breaking balls with it, even though I didn't. Now I lend it out and people shoot me with it and don't break paint in it at all. And that includes new guys and people used to electro triggers.

manike

[Hexis]

shartley you keep going on about the LX only solving a possible chopping problem. The inability of a correctly setup level 10 mag to chop is only one of it's strong points. The level 10 is also much more gentle on paint, reducing not only chops but breech breaks as well. For me this was a much stronger feature than the no chopping. Pre LX I only chopped when I short stroked. Not that it happened all that often, but when it did, I knew who was to blame (and it wasn't AGD). The bolt is also lighter, which is very nice if you got used to and liked the difference a superbolt made.

I don't see AGD saying how bad level 7/RT mags are. I see them touting how damn cool level 10 is. There is nothing wrong with that. So some users have taken the attitude that a mag is nothing without level 10. I can't say I totally agree with that. I can say that I think _everyone_ can benefit from a level 10 setup. Even the occasional breech break or chop is a major PITA. Making that all but impossible is a great thing.

[Dragoon]

Exactly the point of my original post guys.

I'm a bit of a lazy player. I let my hopper batteries get low, or short stroke my retro mag, or sometimes let it run away a little. So to help overcome my lazyness I bought an emag. If I was to have to make that decision again I think I would end up buying an RT Pro with LX. With LX it can handle my weaknesses well. I think the LX gives less expensive markers some of the advantages that that the high end markers use to call their own.

Hence the question of this post.

Douglas

[Dragoon]

Well put Hexis.

So to put out another clear question from what's been said:

What are the performace differences between a LX Emag and a LX RT Pro? Keep in mind I've tried to keep the comparison discussion based on using the Emag in hybrid mode.

The only difference I can think of is the magnetic trigger of the Emag. I think LX has removed the other advantages of the Emag over the RT Pro.

Douglas

[manike]

Originally posted by Hexis
shartly shartly you keep going on about the LX only solving a possible chopping problem. The inability of a correctly setup level 10 mag to chop is only one of it's strong points. The level 10 is also much more gentle on paint, reducing not only chops but breech breaks as well. For me this was a much stronger feature than the no chopping. Pre LX I only chopped when I short stroked. Not that it happened all that often, but when it did, I knew who was to blame (and it wasn't AGD). The bolt is also lighter, which is very nice if you got used to and liked the difference a superbolt made.

I don't see AGD saying how bad level 7/RT mags are. I see them touting how damn cool level 10 is. There is nothing wrong with that. So some users have taken the attitude that a mag is nothing without level 10. I can't say I totally agree with that. I can say that I think _everyone_ can benefit from a level 10 setup. Even the occasional breech break or chop is a major PITA. Making that all but impossible is a great thing.

Agreed. I forgot to mention that the majorly reduced recoil of the level 10 is nice also.

I've now done way over 10 cases of paint in my level 10 guns. And not one single ball break in the breech or barrel. That includes many demo's where I have tried to force breaks!

I think the LX e-mag would always be faster than the LX RTPro in my hands :) I kind of have both (an electronic gun and a manual gun) and am way faster with the electro gun in hybrid mode.

manike

[shartley]

Added: Oops, forgot to not post my sig again.. sorry guys. Taking it off. Also, you KNOW you all missed my long posts. ))

[Hexis]

[shartley]

Originally posted by Hexis

[Dragoon]

I agree that the chopping issue has been promoted the most. True it is easy to demonstrate in a shocking maner that gets people talking about LX. This is also a major weapon to counter the prevailing attitude of non-mag users. Perhaps the marketing is not enough at the actual mag user. Mind you the marketing has been mainly shock marketing posted online up to this point.

I'm looking forward to getting LX in both my mags and giving them a try. Manike, I think it will probably be the same for me in that I'll be able to shoot the emag faster than the retro mag.

I've forgotten about the reduced recoil of the LX bolt. Thanks for reminding me guys. I have that much more to look forward to.

Douglas

[Temo Vryce]

Douglas the question that you should be asking yourself is, which marker do you prefer to play with? Do you prefer you're Retro or the E-Mag? I don't think that you will ever get a satisifying answer to your orginal question. Is the E-Mag obsolete? Not in my opinion. Do you think it is? Now personally I would be happy to give your E-Mag a good home but I know that you are a collector of paintball markers and it's doubtfull that you would give up the E-Mag. Your's was the first E-Mag that I had the pleasure or trying out and I personally don't think that you should give it up. Something that you might consider doing is setuping up both your Retro and E-Mag for different uses. At the indoor field I frequent the ceiling is 250fps, but for tournements it's usely 280fps. Personally I would set the E-mag up for 280 and the retro for 250. That way you don't have to take the time to set it up for the right speed before you play each time.

[Dragoon]

Ya Temo I'll probably end up doing something like that. But I may end having to sell the Emag to raise funds for the C&C Extreme. I focus on function for my markers, but a little extra form is always appreciated

Douglas