Final Truth to Why autocockers seem more accurate | And guess what ITS NOT THE ELVES!

[Troy]

When it comes to most paintball markers accuracy is in the hands of the shooter not the gun.

Some people cannot hit anything no mater what gun you give them.

[314159]

Originally posted by pete-is-god17
kick/ recoil is minimal in paintball guns ....

sounds like somebody has never shot a vm-68

[rx2]

Speaking of the VM, it was my first marker, which I bought back when I was twelve. The thing kicked quite violently, yet I still managed to get many eliminations with that marker, even stacked against experienced players with "better" markers (quite a few of the team players were beginning to shoot mags). I should also mention, it had no shoulder stock.
Learn your marker, and it will serve you well.

[*ArKfEaR*]

K guys. Today i went paintballing. And i did a test.

I had my angel.
My friend joes level 10 mag (shoots cocker as main).
and my friend matts cocker.

We all went to the chrono...

chrono'ed the guns at 280.. (as so it seems.. my angel was the most consistent at +/- 2 then the cocker at +/-4 and the mag at +/-8)

We all had just filled our tanks priored and waited for the tank to cool down after testing.

We all shot the feild day paint draxxus blaze.

We all use freaks and used .684 bore on them.

And we then went to the speedball feild. We all put our guns on a table ALL MAKING SURE barrels lined up and no gun was higher than the other or lower. We then set up a target buker... not sure how far but lets say about : 3 man feilds 50: The cocker hit the the Standup bunker in the same spot 3 times, and it was in the middle. The angel hit the standup about a 8 inches below where the cocker hit, and the spread was weird. We let three shots off , they all shot where they were but, one to the left a little and one to the right alot from the first. We then did the same with the mag, the mag hit the lowest... at only a foot higher to the the lowest point in the bunker. But as it was the lowest, it did hit the same spot all 3 times.

Let me conclude that Closed bolt is better. For the people who are saying well you said: Well you are wrong face it, its all old news, its not true. Listen i dont lie, and from what i seen. Cockers are better ok. I will video tape this next time. So i can prove to you why. You guys can argue all you want. What i see is what i say. You guys can say well a gun shooting at 280 fps shoots 280 fps just like any other gun. And your right, all closed bolts that shoot 280 fps will have the same range, and all open bolts that shoot 280 fps will as well. They are two TOTALLY different ways. And the reason why a cocker is different than a mag when it comes to the air entry is cause they are all in seperate parts, so its closed off from the other, therefore as i said before there is less fluctuation going on. As it differs with most markers. I am telling you what i saw today, and i did have rather fun shooting with my friends mag today as well. Im not telling you to all go out and get a cocker cause some people dont like them, its just as simple as that. What i am saying is its true, and what you see cant be lied unless its magic or illusions and of course this was no illusion. This is automags.org and im not expecting you to be like. Oh ark said this so im going to get a cocker. Im just saying "its there" pretty much, play with your mags if you like it nobody else can badmouth it. Paintball is a preference sport and no other gun is better than the other than the one that you like to shoot.
What i am saying is go out and shoot a nice properly tuned and right set up cocker, and you will truely understand why cocker people, are cocker people, as i was educated after i first played with a cocker.


PS: Magmans my hero...

[*ArKfEaR*]

and also that test you gave me doesnt do no good, considering they do the test on a stingray not a cocker.

And a cocker shoots better than most other closed bolt guns, just because the way the valve was designed.

[P4ULuk]

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*
K guys. Today i went paintballing. And i did a test.

I had my angel.
My friend joes level 10 mag (shoots cocker as main).
and my friend matts cocker.

We all went to the chrono...

chrono'ed the guns at 280.. (as so it seems.. my angel was the most consistent at +/- 2 then the cocker at +/-4 and the mag at +/-8)

We all had just filled our tanks priored and waited for the tank to cool down after testing.

We all shot the feild day paint draxxus blaze.

We all use freaks and used .684 bore on them.

And we then went to the speedball feild. We all put our guns on a table ALL MAKING SURE barrels lined up and no gun was higher than the other or lower. We then set up a target buker... not sure how far but lets say about : 3 man feilds 50: The cocker hit the the Standup bunker in the same spot 3 times, and it was in the middle. The angel hit the standup about a 8 inches below where the cocker hit, and the spread was weird. We let three shots off , they all shot where they were but, one to the left a little and one to the right alot from the first. We then did the same with the mag, the mag hit the lowest... at only a foot higher to the the lowest point in the bunker. But as it was the lowest, it did hit the same spot all 3 times.

Let me conclude that Closed bolt is better. For the people who are saying well you said: Well you are wrong face it, its all old news, its not true. Listen i dont lie, and from what i seen. Cockers are better ok. I will video tape this next time. So i can prove to you why. You guys can argue all you want. What i see is what i say. You guys can say well a gun shooting at 280 fps shoots 280 fps just like any other gun. And your right, all closed bolts that shoot 280 fps will have the same range, and all open bolts that shoot 280 fps will as well. They are two TOTALLY different ways. And the reason why a cocker is different than a mag when it comes to the air entry is cause they are all in seperate parts, so its closed off from the other, therefore as i said before there is less fluctuation going on. As it differs with most markers. I am telling you what i saw today, and i did have rather fun shooting with my friends mag today as well. Im not telling you to all go out and get a cocker cause some people dont like them, its just as simple as that. What i am saying is its true, and what you see cant be lied unless its magic or illusions and of course this was no illusion. This is automags.org and im not expecting you to be like. Oh ark said this so im going to get a cocker. Im just saying "its there" pretty much, play with your mags if you like it nobody else can badmouth it. Paintball is a preference sport and no other gun is better than the other than the one that you like to shoot.
What i am saying is go out and shoot a nice properly tuned and right set up cocker, and you will truely understand why cocker people, are cocker people, as i was educated after i first played with a cocker.


PS: Magmans my hero...

Has anyone else performed such a test? I always fancied doing a bench mount test but never got around to it however I'll try this myself tomorrow, if anyone at the field has a cocker! If not it'll be a test between my extreme and an IR3.

Should be interesting!

Paul.

[sk8dood]

*ArKfEaR*- were you outside? if so did you take the other variables into consideration?

[*ArKfEaR*]

make sure fps is the same, and make sure you use a freak.

Explane your results. It would be rather cool if your results differed. Cause then the paintball community would just realize that all guns are different no matter what lol.

Make sure the cocker you use the test for is from a cocker person. Not someone new to the cocker world, cause although they tend to seem as they were shooting fine a properly tuned cocker shoots immaculate.

Also anyone else getting lag just with this thread cause it must be on fire!

[magman007]

First off, why am i your hero? sorry, i guess i have to be vein when some one chooses me as thier hero, although i am sure it was sarcastic, im gunna play it along.

2nd off.

The same test you have done has been done by many others. Have blue has conducted this test, he conducted it in a perfectly controlled situation bench mounted etc..... his results were different from yours. He saw absolutely no difference. This makes me wonder why your tests are so much different.


Id also like to state that you said you were using a properly tuned cocker. Why didnt you use a properly tuned mag? A mag can be very consistent if properly tuned.

Also, you should have used the exact same tank for each marker. no 2 tanks are exactally alike, if you used 3 different tanks, it could have affected it.

Also, video would be very helpfull, but i doubt we will ever see it. there fore, i will trust the people that have done independant testing (have blue allong with others)

I wil also trust the man who has invested thoudands to create a gun dyno. that man is tom Kaye. I have seen the dyno, seen it in action, seen it work. I think thats a little more accurate.

Also, the way your describing it your telling me that the cocker was firing at a higher velocity. Olny way it could have shot higher. This is probabally becasue the mag wasnt properly tuned. Oh well, what am i going to do? people just dont face the facts. sorry for the shartley ish post




EDIT: paul, im very interested to see your results, but i already have an idea of what they will be.


Arkfear, you said to make sure the fps is the same, why dont you follow your own advice?

[*ArKfEaR*]

cause i cant follow my own advice as if there different consistancy issues. We all shoot angel airs so yes we did all shoot the same tank. And theres no such thing as a propperly tuned mag? Theres nothing to tune. You just set your fps, make sure your output is nice, and make sure its clean. Ok... and trust me you will see a video.


Lol magman how can people not face the facts, your the one arguing already. Your the one not facing the facts, i spent about an hour doing this test making sure all the things were right (if you wanna ask a question go ahead)Your the one not facing the facts considering today i did a test gave results and you dissaproved them cause you think im lieing. Im the one who saw the test done, im faceing teh facts from what i saw. I never heard of have blue are you sure he didnt lie and just said they all shot the same cause he had a mag and wanted everyone to feel better cause he beg to differ and was wrong? Or even just lied so there were no problems? Im not calling Have blue a liar as i dont know him but i am saying it was very possible.

I will conduct a video in a matter of 3 months. I dont have the time to do it again and have it video taped and then load it up make sure its high quality etc etc etc. Right now... but you will see it..

[magman007]

Hmmmm Verry interesting...


Here We GO KIDDIES!!!


Properly tuned mag: New reg seet. You should have deffinitely put one in, that was probabally the baisis of it being so incosistent. also, it should have been oiled thouroghly. If you were serrious about this, you would have um what did you say? "prpoerly tuned" the mag in question to the point where the velocities were consistent. Also, was it a standard, or a retro? if it was a retro, you should have done the test the same way you chrono it.

Also i am curious as to how you mounted the markers. They are each different size and such, how did you do it?

I am just telling you, i know the facts, i know what has been tested many times before and proven wrong. Also, how can you say that the test proving that closed vs open is crap because it was done with a sting ray? why dont you do this. Flip your hoses, and test the cocker in closed bolt fassion, then test it in open bolt fassion. you will see no difference. I havea feeling there is a nother variable you are not telling us. Or the improper tuning and maintinence of the mag was that variable.


how long untill you tell us that cocker barrels are far superior to the twist lok assy? that should be interesting.


3 montsh for a video? by that time no one will carea ny more. Also, that is a good time to edit a video... hmmmm


oh well, im tied of fighting, if you chiise to respond i giess il go another round. I just know what is the truth. you will find it shortly. It is out there, and in the hearts of any constant ao memeber. Also, why dont you take this to deep blue? or ask to have it posted in techncal round table?

wait for me, lemme go find a thread we debated about in deep blue a few weeks ago, il be right back

http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...d+bolt+automag http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...d+bolt+automag

[Kaiser Bob]

To ensure they were all shooting at the same angle from the table you need a level measuring from the tip of the barrel. PBstar also did this test of open vs. closed bolt and it showed no significant difference.

[the jackal]

Quote:
What i am saying is go out and shoot a nice properly tuned and right set up cocker, and you will truely understand why cocker people, are cocker people, as i was educated after i first played with a cocker.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I must have been de-educated because I sold my finely tuned
custom built cocker for an inconsistent, short range, high-pressure chopping machine.

Seriously though, I speak from the experience of shooting both guns for relatively long periods of time and I'll never criticize an autococker because I like them and am currently building one from the ground up are they better than mags? That's your aesthetic choice but in reality where the laws of physics reign supreme, no.

[SaS]

did my 3am rant make any sense... from the respone, I'm just wondering

Thanks magman for talking about the closed/open test

Montana still uses pop... new york, it's soda... i guess more places too
Montana still uses "cool" too, i've been told that it faded out pretty much everywere else

now on to my rant... Part 2


it's a little thing most people like to call... The Scientific meathod...
you isolate all of the variables except for the debated ones
This would be the Open-bolt closed-bolt
(the fewer the variables the better, too many and you get contaminated data. It's that simple, ask your physics and/or your chemestry teacher)
so it MUST BE DONE ON THE SAME MARKER SYSTEM!!

The WARPIG test confirmed that the accuracy from bolt configuartion is all just hype... did you do my test, It's really fun... really

The next word for the day... is Relative

the different bolt configuration has no effect on the STINGRAYS performance... we are not comparing the specs to different markers (that would contaminate the experiements conclusion)... we ARE comparing the difference of the STINGRAYS specs with the two bolt configurations (without changing ANY OTHER VARIABLE)

Test conclusion: The bolt configuration had NO EFFECT on the stingrays performancs... (remember the word reletive) so, the the closed bolt of the autocockers wouldn't change the cockers performance... SO IT DOESN'T MATTER if the autococker is open or closed bolt... any accuracy is dependent apon the other variables that WERE NOT TESTED
(the warpig test was the bolt positions effect on the markers performance and not on the markers performance specs in relation to OTHER markers, only to itself)

bolt position does not matter and thus shouldn't be used in a accuracy debate (please stop bringing this up, switch your tubes and do the test on your cocker if that's what it takes)

now, the OTHER variables are user adjustable... user dependent, if you like that one better

it all depends on what the user did to it, new valve, oiled it, different hopper, and etc...

you can easily say that my cockers is more accurate then this guys mag... but you can't say it for EVERY mag... because EVERY mag and cocker is different....
just think of all the possible combinations of autocockers and automags... sh$#, you even said that the guy with the mag had a cocker for a main

in your terminalogy, you had a cocker person provding the "test" mag

try this test next time... a STOCK autococker(from wgp) and a stock rt pro(or even classic... yet another variable to take into consideration)

In "testing" my custom sfl autococker was more accurate then my friends automag... with a classic valve

COME ON, (throughing scientific method out the window for this comeback) it's like comparing a angel to a model 98

if you did the test again with 2 autocockers... or two angels... your results would be this dye autococker is better then other autocockers... your test only relates to the specif modifications (or lack of) from the different markers...

it has NO relative meaning to relate your conclusion to any other marker... you only proved that your autococker was more _insert here_ then this other guys automag(you even said that he's had a cocker for a main)


oh, the test... use the same tank. Not tank model, but the same identical tank.
did you secure the markers for the test, hold them on a table, put the trigger as it layed on the table?


ok ok ok, i've said too much... AGAIN, and i'm sorry for that again
I'm sorry if any of this sounded harsh... it wasn't intended to
sort of like my "potato, potato" joke/saying attempt


(back to the scentific method)
My General Conclusion About Your Test:
Your conclusions were contaminated by being exposed to more variables then the intended... and then again, what were the intended variables for the test? remember you can only have 1, MAYBE two.

You initial question was faulty and included too many inconsistent variables(and i'm not talking about fps consistency)

my sugestion would be to better limit your testing variables so the collected data isn't as biased or contaminated

Thank you if you actually read through both of my rants

[magman007]

hmmm, now where is dansim with that owned picture? you kno the one, the one with the plane smashing into the truck? that one best describes what sas and I did to arkfear