another mag vs cocker question

[shartley]

Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*
tell your friend hes right.

and here is the reason why - http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=49271

old stuff.

Probably going to start another war, in which im not going to reply once to this thread after my reply just to avoid a rucus.

Why do you even bother? Your "theories" about open VS closed bolt were proved WRONG. And tests proved that there is no difference between the two... only the way it cycles in the firing process is changed, not the accuracy or consistency.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

yea these dumb people at the store tried to sell my step dad a cocker claiming it shot futher and was more accuarate... then when i try to step in and start talking about physics the guy still defys me! what a arsehole

[TRIAD]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52833

Ark, you have proved nothing to any of us, except your ignorance, which seems to be in abundance. Stand down and try to learn, and MAYBE you won't sound so ignorant.


As shown in the above link, you keep posting a link to a "debate" which you have proved nothing with. I want to know why you think you were right when you just stood your ground with zero information and 100% ignorance?

[magman007]

HAHAHAHAHA Ark are you stupid or just retarded?

Ok this is incredibly hillarious, as ark posted in that with that link he owned us, well, check the 2nd page, that was the picture i used when we owned him in the debate, jeez ark, atleast yiou could have used a different thread, or atleast noit stolen the picture used against you in that thread to make your self look stuipider.

THank you for makiung my rainy day worth the wile!

Dang, that is 2 threads IM ON A ROLL!!!


Edit, miscue, may i borrow your picture to describe ark? thanx!!!

[RamboPreacher]

okay, okay, I normaly wouldn't post in a thread like this because it serves no purpose, it'e like debating creation vs. evolution on a religion/philosophy forum - arghghg...

here's my stance: Everyone is right and wrong and for various reasons! (insert wild grin here).

effective accuracy and effective range (EAER), is what I coined several years ago when talking about these issues. open bolt, closed bolt, no bolt - it isn't mattering.

"why does his cocker shoot farther than my mag(or whatever)?" - there are various reasons. velocity is the main variable here. there is no way to (current technology) ensure that every given paintball will shoot at a specific velocity, whether that's 285 fps or 300 fps. consistancy is then a key factor in the velocity issue.

consistancy is mainly in the propellant source. so an HPA system is better, then right? not necessarily. you have to compare apples to apples. HPA systems all have at least one regulator, and then is connected to a gun with a possible second or even third regulator. if you reg-up co2 that extent, you will find that the differences in consistancy (barring any liquid contact) are actually pretty minimal.

paint-barrel match, and valve-barrel matching (dep[ending on who you ask) is then another factor of effective accuracy this time. assuming velocity is a constant, the travel of the ball in the barrel is going to only affect it's accuracy and trajectory. it may also affect efficiency, but that is another issue, since many of these variable also affect efficiency.

then we find at least one other factor in the EAER issue - how well built the marker is, itself. if it has loos tolorances or has been used enough to loosen tolorances, it adds a degree of variable to teh consistancy for velocity (range) as well as adding variable to the accuracy measurement.

then we have the field tests. assuming that velocity is as constant as possible, and given comparable markers and their internal tolorances - yes, one marker can still "outshoot" another. there are just too many factors involved. It is up to the player to evaluate the "cost" of ensuring that all the factors have the least impact on the performance as possible.

Finally - it is my personal opinion, that (ceteris paribus) the main variable on a given marker's EAER is the players comfort level with that marker. EAER is not really something that can be measured. I do know that the player that lives, breathes, sleeps, and knows it backwards and forwards - with his tippman, will more than likely shoot it with greater EAER than the player that just got a new JAE. (or vice versa).

[shartley]

Originally posted by RamboPreacher
okay, okay, I normaly wouldn't post in a thread like this because it serves no purpose, it'e like debating creation vs. evolution on a religion/philosophy forum - arghghg...

here's my stance: Everyone is right and wrong and for various reasons! (insert wild grin here).

effective accuracy and effective range (EAER), is what I coined several years ago when talking about these issues. open bolt, closed bolt, no bolt - it isn't mattering.

"why does his cocker shoot farther than my mag(or whatever)?" - there are various reasons. velocity is the main variable here. there is no way to (current technology) ensure that every given paintball will shoot at a specific velocity, whether that's 285 fps or 300 fps. consistancy is then a key factor in the velocity issue.

consistancy is mainly in the propellant source. so an HPA system is better, then right? not necessarily. you have to compare apples to apples. HPA systems all have at least one regulator, and then is connected to a gun with a possible second or even third regulator. if you reg-up co2 that extent, you will find that the differences in consistancy (barring any liquid contact) are actually pretty minimal.

paint-barrel match, and valve-barrel matching (dep[ending on who you ask) is then another factor of effective accuracy this time. assuming velocity is a constant, the travel of the ball in the barrel is going to only affect it's accuracy and trajectory. it may also affect efficiency, but that is another issue, since many of these variable also affect efficiency.

then we find at least one other factor in the EAER issue - how well built the marker is, itself. if it has loos tolorances or has been used enough to loosen tolorances, it adds a degree of variable to teh consistancy for velocity (range) as well as adding variable to the accuracy measurement.

then we have the field tests. assuming that velocity is as constant as possible, and given comparable markers and their internal tolorances - yes, one marker can still "outshoot" another. there are just too many factors involved. It is up to the player to evaluate the "cost" of ensuring that all the factors have the least impact on the performance as possible.

Finally - it is my personal opinion, that (ceteris paribus) the main variable on a given marker's EAER is the players comfort level with that marker. EAER is not really something that can be measured. I do know that the player that lives, breathes, sleeps, and knows it backwards and forwards - with his tippman, will more than likely shoot it with greater EAER than the player that just got a new JAE. (or vice versa).

[RamboPreacher]

sorry, still noobee here. (after visiting so many forums, I find that I have to assume the worst, until proven otherwise. )

[shartley]

[Miscue]

If one gun has more range than another in a horizontal direction, then it should also have more range going in the vertical direction... just a matter of which way you point your gun. Correct? Say 'yes'... I know you can do it. (Reason why removing the horizontal is to simplify the physics for ya'll... same principles... less vectors to play with)

Let's say you shot a ball straight up in the air at 300fps. Can we all agree that this ball is at 300fps? Ok... 300fps now... right? Can you remember 300fps? 300fps... don't forget. 300fps, 300fps, 300fps. Everyone seems to ignore this 300fps thing when talking about range.

Classical physics denotes that in one-dimensional kinematics (which is the case when you shoot something perpendicular to the ground):

Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2

Now, the Maximum height is when the ball is shot up in the air and reaches 0 velocity... the point in which it is about to fall.

Time to reach maximum height = (Initial Velocity - 0 Velocity)/Accel. Gravity

Ok... let's plug some numbers in.

What do you think the Initial Velocity is? 300fps!!! Oh... you're so fast! Accel of gravity is approx 32 ft/sec^2.

Ok... solve for time first:
Time = (300 - 0) / 32 = 9.375 sec

Solve for Max Height:

Distance = 300ft/sec x 9.375s - (1/2)32ft/sec/sec * 9.375^2
Distance = 1406.25 ft.

Note... that there is no equation:

Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2 + PFM

Where PFM = the "Pure Magic" cocker constant. There's isn't a place in the equation to add or subtract distance in case you were using a cocker, mag, angel, sling shot, or high speed upchuck.

This equation applies to cannon balls, elephants, cocker spaniels, and bikini models... shot out of open-bolt markers, closed-bolt markers, rifles, cannons, catapults, ballistas... or even lifted up into the air via an explosive device.

Ok, so you want to be a stickler. "Ooh! Oooh! What about this buzzword 'drag' ? Huh? Huh!?!? That's all theoretical! Ooh! Look at the BIG techy word I just used! Theoretical! That doesn't apply in the REAL world"

I could calculate drag for you, but would require a lot more work and differential equations that you wouldn't understand anyway. Basically... most lack the necessary tool box to begin to understand such 'real world' computations. And besides, if you're using same projectile at same velocity... the effect of drag is identical anyway... so everything is equal... so what one projectile loses in drag... the other does as well. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/falling.html

Look at this for a while, and if you understand it then maybe I'll give you some 'REAL' world calculations... which would be a waste of time because the fundamentals are the same... and the math would just end up saying the same thing: Two cows shot in the air by a cow sized cocker, or a cow sized mag, or an ACME Cow Chucker... will travel the same distance and hit the ground just as hard. Doesn't matter if it's a moo cow, dairy cow, or even a horse or English teacher with same mass and surface area...

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~physedu/mapletutorial/tutorials/diff_eqs/

Bottom line is: Once the ball has left the gun... that ball is on it's own. However it was propelled... paintgun, spitwad straw, cocker, mag, outta your butt... whatever... it doesn't matter.

It's initially traveling at 300fps... end of story.

[shartley]

.

[Sinnet]

Originally posted by cphilip
You mean hock a luggie?

luggie? I thought it was a loogie?

[dansim]

[Mossman]

Originally posted by dansim

I love you dansim

[TRIAD]

What thread?
WHERE?
WHAT HAPPENED?

[RamboPreacher]

thread? was sombody sewing?

Paintball is FUN!!!