Avalanche Allegedly Caught Cheating and Thrown out of WC

[Rooster]

Teams will still cheat, and with penalties like that, teams will disappear as fast as they appear.

All will agree that what Salm did is attrocious. It is, to the best of my knowledge, the worst known case of cheating in tounry ball. But should the penalty be so severe as to ruin, not only one career, but the careers of all the members of Avalanche? That is something we should all consider before we scream to the heavens for the ignomious demise of Salm and Avalanche.

I have an interesting team penalty. Why not force Avalanche to play minus one or more men for the next X number of NPPL tounries they enter? It's akin to hokey penalties, so there is a precedant in organized sport. It's severe, severly handicapping cheating teams, but it allows those teams to continue competing.

What do you think?

If all pro teams cheat, then there should be no pro teams. Its really that simple. Or everyone should resign themselves to the fact that paintball is nothing but cheaters game of laser tag.

[manike]

Originally posted by Rooster
If all pro teams cheat, then there should be no pro teams. Its really that simple. Or everyone should resign themselves to the fact that paintball is nothing but cheaters game of laser tag.

It's not just pro's that cheat, and it's not just tourny players that cheat. Cheating happens anywhere that there are not enough good referees to control it.

Up until the World Cup, I honestly believed the most cheating of playing on and wiping happens at big games and rec events. World Cup with poor reffing had a huge issue with cheating through all ranks.

It's just that people are more likely to see cheats at tournaments and people care more about cheats at tournaments where there are financial rewards etc. There is a huge issue of cheating within paintball. Period.

manike

[Devil]

I think it is horrible that Avalanche or just the one player

("We, Team Avalanche, would like to apologize to our sponsors and our fans for the actions of one individual, who is no longer on our team. Although, as a team we take full responsibility, we would like everyone to understand that we were unaware of what had transpired until after the fact. Also, we would like to state that the decision made by the rules committee was the correct one.")

would stoop to such levels...but there is ALOT of "favoritism" and "cheating" in paintball...I have tourney videos that me and moose watch and there is one where the refs made so many bad calls and favored the one team that it was sickening...even a mere child could have seen how dirty it was...but the game went on...

If this sport is going to be taken seriously we need to do as AGD said in his thoughts about the whole thing! I mean...are we playing this game because there can be alot of cool prizes...or is it because when all we had was the pumps and then the "wal-mart" markers...that maybe we really loved the game. When we were younger and playing woods in the back of your best friends house...was it for the free "sea-doo" and the $$1,000,000,000,000...or was it because it felt good to get out there with your marker and prove your worth!
Just because we have awesome mags and all the other expensive markers now, and we play with various different types of people, and on teams...doesn't mean that we should forget how fun it is to get that adrenaline rush when you hear "gogogogogo!"
If you are bored with the game...GET OFF THE FIELD SO I CAN TAKE YOUR PLACE...if you don't get off the field and I catch you dishonoring the sport...I WILL REMOVE YOU FROM THE FIELD! (Just a message to anyone out there that cheats!)
Let's just have fun! (SC:AO YEA!)

(just my thoughts on the matter)

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by manike
Up until the World Cup, I honestly believed the most cheating of playing on and wiping happens at big games and rec events. World Cup with poor reffing had a huge issue with cheating through all ranks.

Much as I hate to admit it I've seen this happen. I was at one big game where we pushed the other team all the way back to their base. It was a long walk back to our reincarnation point and when I got there the ref explained that I was the only eliminated player he had seen in like half an hour. I mean come on! No wonder we pushed them all the way back to their base. Either I suck (which is entirely possible) or I was on a REALLY good team.

[ShooterJM]

Re: Hold On A Minute!!

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Ray Lewis was never accused of stabbing anyone. He pled guilty to Obstruction of Justice charges. He was also suspended and fined by the league.

Apples to apples....

It was intended as a joke.

Correction he was charged with murder and felony assault. He wasn't convicted of murder. He plead guilty to a minor misdemeanor in exchange for testifying against the two other people charged as well. If the prosecution weren't the most inept, worthless, good for nothing, pieces of crap lawyers little Ray "Stabby McStab" Lewis would've been convicted.

[Rooster]

It's not just pro's that cheat, and it's not just tourny players that cheat. Cheating happens anywhere that there are not enough good referees to control it.

Up until the World Cup, I honestly believed the most cheating of playing on and wiping happens at big games and rec events. World Cup with poor reffing had a huge issue with cheating through all ranks.

It's just that people are more likely to see cheats at tournaments and people care more about cheats at tournaments where there are financial rewards etc. There is a huge issue of cheating within paintball. Period.

Thats the trouble, cheating happens from the top down. And stopping it works the same way. I'm sure kids have cheated at flag football. Does that means the NFL should turn a blind eye to cheating? Until the top is fixed, who can expect the rest to follow?

[Timmee]

Originally posted by Rooster



Thats the trouble, cheating happens from the top down. And stopping it works the same way. I'm sure kids have cheated at flag football. Does that means the NFL should turn a blind eye to cheating? Until the top is fixed, who can expect the rest to follow?

I don't think that cheating happens from the top down. I think it's more along the lines of the win at all costs mentality. I've seen that mentality at rec ball games far too often. Also, some rec players (myslef included) don't really care what the pro's do. It doesn't affect my playing style or ethics if pro player X wipes a hit, or if pro player Y plays on. How would banning a tourney team from the NPPL (or any other big series) change how rec player A behaves on the field?

[Rooster]

Honestly it can't. Kids will still cheat at flag football. Rec players will still cheat at paintball. But it will no longer be accepted as part of the game. If cheaters cheat to win at any cost, then the cost better be huge.

[MagMonster]

HAHA thats the funniest article ive read ever.... I guess just because your pro doenst mean your smart. Your just good at paintball. wonder what kind of gun he was using?

[Trunnion]

did you bother to actually read this thread, or just reply to it?

[billmi]

Originally posted by sygyzy
And they think paintball is ready for the Olympics. HA!

Haha! Yeah, 'cause there's never been an Olympic scandal like a skater having the knees of another skater beaten, and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone caught cheating in an olympic event and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone who got their medal taken away in the Olympics for failing a drug test at an olympic event and....
Oh, waith there has.

Haha! Yeah, there's never been a scandal about judges "fixing" a figure skating score in the olympics and...
Oh, waith there has.

What was your point again?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by cphilip
I also saw one of the supposed professional ref's get arrested for stealing and angel

I'm not sure what you saw or what you thought you saw, or what you supposed about what you though you saw, or who you supposed to be professional when you saw what you though you saw under the supposition that you were seeing it but....

Typically when people say "professional refs" they are referring to refs that are a part of P.R.O., the Paintball Referee Organization. At World Cup, some of the refs were hired (I guess you could argue that any ref that gets paid is "professional") from teams, some were hired from P.R.O., and some were local Orlando area player's that were hired.

At the World Cup, there was a local Orlando area player hired as a ref who was arrested for stealing an Angel from WDP. Additionally, he was accused of stealing a P.R.O. jersey. He was being evaluated for the P.R.O. program, but he was not a P.R.O. ref. Needless to say, after his performance and arrest during evaluation, he will not become a P.R.O. ref, either.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by ogre55


I've been playing paintball for a while and I have NEVER heard of anything like this happeneding before. I have heard of cheating, but not to this ridiculous magnatude.

In this incident, players were eliminated from the game through cheating.

While the method seemed pretty outlandish, is the effect on the game much different than:

*A player wiping off a hit so that they stay in the game.
*A player spinning - that is shooting another player out of the game after they are hit and therefore eliminated.
*A player shooting from the dead box, taking out a player from the opposing team.
Etc.
*A player using "cheater" modes to give them a firepower advantage over the opposing team.

The "sniping from the woods" incident is hardly different in its effect on the game than other forms of cheating that happen all the time in tournament, walk on, scenario, big game, pump, and semi-auto paintball games.

That's not to say that the other forms of cheating are OK, they're not. My point is it's pretty rediculous for people to get all in a huff over this one incident and ignore, or play down the seriousness of the others.

The factor of cheating's importance is that the outcome of the game was affected by the cheating - not how unusual, outlandish, or brazen the method of the cheating may have been.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Rooster]

Haha! Yeah, 'cause there's never been an Olympic scandal like a skater having the knees of another skater beaten, and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone caught cheating in an olympic event and....
Oh, wait there has.


Haha! Yeah, there's never been someone who got their medal taken away in the Olympics for failing a drug test at an olympic event and....
Oh, waith there has.

Haha! Yeah, there's never been a scandal about judges "fixing" a figure skating score in the olympics and...
Oh, waith there has.

What was your point again?

What happened to all of those people? I'd say a few of them got more than a one year ban from their sport. People will always try to cheat in whatever sport they are a part of. The degree that they succeed is detirmined by the organization's tolerance for cheating. Paintball has a very high tolerance for cheaters.

[billmi]

Originally posted by cphilip Re: the choice of PRO refs


Same here Ben! and not much interest!!! Seemed to me it was a lot of "who you knows" out there sprinkled with a few "you and me's" that should have been out there. Just my take on it is they are not serious about disturbing the "good old boy" network already established. And I suspect its a matter of comfort level. the thinking is that I can call these few guys they will get soem guys to show up. I suspect "showing up" is the most important thing now rather than maturity and knowledge of the rules. Thats what I see anyway.

I think its few people getting a call something like "get me some warm bodies out there" so I can go onto something else...

I'm sure, both you and Ben having seriously pursued becoming a PRO Ref, have already had discussions with Bill Cookston about why different people were hired or not hired for reffing World Cup.

That being the case you would know that the refs are hired by the event promoters (in the case of World Cup, PSP).

One of the major factors considered by P.R.O. in finding their P.R.O. refs is geography. They don't tend to chase down people whom they can't afford to fly in to a location to ref, and to be trained, or observed while reffing. Now, I'm sure someone willing to foot their own travel bill, after having a discussion with Bill Cookston about that fact, would probably be in a different position.

That is one of the factors that limited the P.R.O. refs available for World Cup, and why there were independant locally hired refs, as well as team refs refereeing the games in addition to the P.R.O. refs.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills