New York Paintball Ban?

[shartley]

Re: Just an Idea.

Originally posted by Danz
Just an Idea.

I wonder if it could be made mandatory for a manufacturer to sell a marker with some sort of bag or case for transport. I realize that this wont stop players who insist on not using them, but at least its a start. Maybe get younger players used to the practice of safe transport from the beginning.

Danz

I would not support that.

You can buy a shotgun without a bag. A Compound Bow without a bag. ETC. It is not up to the Manufacturer to provide "transport" gear for their product.

[ogre55]

On the topic of manufacturers providing a bag or case with a marker, my feelings are mixed. Most people who legally purchase firearms know that they need to keep them out of plain sight when transporting them. However, while we know the markers are not toys, most parents who buy them for their teenaged kids do not, unless they play as well. Further, when buying a marker at a local sporting goods store, or discount chain (K/Walmart) the sales people have no clue either.

To illustrate. Paraphrasing a story told in another thread, an AOer was standing on line at the local discount store while the teenager behind the counter was helping a parent by a marker for their child. Neither the parent nor the salesperson were knowledgable and the salesperson was telling the parent that masks were not neccasary and not to worry about it. The AOer, to his credit, set the parent straight, and the parent, to their credit, brought both the gun and the mask, but while the AOer being there to explain to a new paintball player/purchaser what owning a marker entails is the exception, the stupid salesperson is the unfortunate rule.

In another, more disturbing, example, the recent film, Bowling for Comumbine had a sequence when Michael Moore, the filmaker, went into a K-Mart in Colorado to buy some bullets. Not paintballs, but real lead bullets. There was not one person behind the counter at this store that was over 18. That is just scary to me. These kids knew nothing. My favorite sequence had to be when, while trying to get the packages to the counter, one of the salespeople drops the package, sending ammunition rolling in all directions. If not for the seriousness of the situation I would liken the scene to a sequence from the Keystone Cops.

If stores selling paintball gear and firearms are irresponible in their firearms sales, how responsible can we expect them to be in their sales of paintball equipment.

So getting back to the point, while most adults that buy firearms should have enough common sense not to carry their guns out in the open, unless there is an open carry law in effect in the jurisdiction, that same level of resposibility cannot be expected of people buying markers.

While I would like to agree with Shartley (see I spelled it right ), I cannot, knowing that most people simply do not understand that a marker, while not as lethal as a firearm, should be treated with the same respect.

Ogre

[Danz]

Marker bags

Hi.

Many markers come with barrel plugs. Many masks come with goggle bags. Markers coming with marker bags just seems to be a logical step for safety sake. I would gladly pay a few bucks extra for that.

Danz

[shartley]

Good response.

I however have to disagree.

Let me break it down section by section:

On the topic of manufacturers providing a bag or case with a marker, my feelings are mixed. Most people who legally purchase firearms know that they need to keep them out of plain sight when transporting them. However, while we know the markers are not toys, most parents who buy them for their teenaged kids do not, unless they play as well. Further, when buying a marker at a local sporting goods store, or discount chain (K/Walmart) the sales people have no clue either.

To illustrate. Paraphrasing a story told in another thread, an AOer was standing on line at the local discount store while the teenager behind the counter was helping a parent by a marker for their child. Neither the parent nor the salesperson were knowledgable and the salesperson was telling the parent that masks were not neccasary and not to worry about it. The AOer, to his credit, set the parent straight, and the parent, to their credit, brought both the gun and the mask, but while the AOer being there to explain to a new paintball player/purchaser what owning a marker entails is the exception, the stupid salesperson is the unfortunate rule.

In another, more disturbing, example, the recent film, Bowling for Comumbine had a sequence when Michael Moore, the filmaker, went into a K-Mart in Colorado to buy some bullets. Not paintballs, but real lead bullets. There was not one person behind the counter at this store that was over 18. That is just scary to me. These kids knew nothing. My favorite sequence had to be when, while trying to get the packages to the counter, one of the salespeople drops the package, sending ammunition rolling in all directions. If not for the seriousness of the situation I would liken the scene to a sequence from the Keystone Cops.

Again this issue is serious, but is not the responsibility of the manufacturer. It is purely a store issue.

If stores selling paintball gear and firearms are irresponible in their firearms sales, how responsible can we expect them to be in their sales of paintball equipment.

So getting back to the point, while most adults that buy firearms should have enough common sense not to carry their guns out in the open, unless there is an open carry law in effect in the jurisdiction, that same level of resposibility cannot be expected of people buying markers.

And why not? It is the responsibility of the person buying the product to learn about its use, safe transport of that product, and most of the other things we now want to place directly into the lap of the manufacturer. This is silly in my opinion. Why not expect the SAME levels of personal responsibility for paintball equipment that we do for any other product out there. Heck, we do not require Black and Decker to provide a pair of goggles with each drill they sell, or saw, but you can bet that the ER sees more visitors from eye injuries because of people not wearing any.

While I would like to agree with Shartley (see I spelled it right ), I cannot, knowing that most people simply do not understand that a marker, while not as lethal as a firearm, should be treated with the same respect.

THANKS!!!

But, I will point back up to my previously stated opinions.

[shartley]

Re: Marker bags

Originally posted by Danz
Hi.

Many markers come with barrel plugs. Many masks come with goggle bags. Markers coming with marker bags just seems to be a logical step for safety sake. I would gladly pay a few bucks extra for that.

Danz

I wouldn't. Simply because I have 3 markers, 3 sets of goggles, 3 air systems, etc.

Most of the people I know want to keep their equipment together in one place and not in separate bags and containers. And how will the manufacturer know what air source you will be using, or size? Heck, some use drops, some don't, big tanks, small tanks, different hoppers, etc.

You expect the manufacturer to plan for all of this? I know I don't.

And again, I would not pay for it. Not now, not ever. I don't want to pay for something I will not ever use..... because some idiot lacks common sense. If it is truly a "safety" item, sure.... but a bag is NOT.

[ogre55]

No it is the fault of the retailers. However, we must take into special consideration the nature of the products we are dealing with. Not only are markers not toys, but most of the opponents of our sport would have everyone believe that markers should be put in the same class as firearms.

That being the case, firearms manufacturers, not the retailers, or the consumers, have been sued in various jurisdictions by victims of crimes purpetrated with the firearms made by those manufacturers. I know of ongoing litigation both in Florida and in California.

And to add insult to injury, and fuel to the fire that is this thread, the New York City Counsel (the same bunch of geniuses who created the laws that have made my life that much more difficult) have introduced legislation to create a new cause of action which would allow such litigation in New York.

This litigation against firearms manufacturers is based on the idea that they manufactured products that were "prefered" by criminals for one reason or another. That somehow the manufacturer knew that because of the design sales would be brisk because criminals would buy the marker.

Using a bit of logical progression, I can see how a lawyer could argue that a marker was used because some design feature made it desirable to the person commiting the offense. If a judge decides to allow this extention of the firearm cause of action, the best defense a manufacturer will have is that they made their markers to be as safe as possible.

Under your basic reasoning, not only should the manufacturer provide a carrying case for their marker, but a mask as well.

This would also have to be transferred to any other product that could be dangerous. How about cars? We would then have to require car dealerships to provide car buyers with instructions on the safe operation of the car they want to purchase.

When was the last time a new car was produced without a seatbelt? Manufacturers have step by step instructions on how to operate seatbelts in the manuals for the cars.

The ignorance of a parent buying a marker for their child is no concern of the manufacturer (beyond reasonable measures... which I feel are already being made).

Considering the litigious nature of our society and the deep pockets of many paintball manufactures, this should be a major concern.

Maybe I am just a cynic, but it seems to me that a good amount of the population of this world are "retarded". As a case in point, I point to the genius who posted in a thread about outlaw painbtball, that when confronted with the police, people playing outlaw 'ball should run from the cops.

And it is usually these very retards (I really do like your use of the word) that sue.

The Industry itself can not be held responsible for everyone who SELLS the equipment. If anyone sees someone try to sell a marker to someone and say no mask is needed, I would not only set them strait on the spot, but immediately report it to their supervisor or the store owner.

Again you are assuming that the supervisor or store owner knows better, or even cares. I am sure that they will make nice to you when you report the incident, however, when they confront the employee, the conversation will probably entail a very simple question..."Did you make the sale?"

And why not? It is the responsibility of the person buying the product to learn about its use, safe transport of that product, and most of the other things we now want to place directly into the lap of the manufacturer. This is silly in my opinion. Why not expect the SAME levels of personal responsibility for paintball equipment that we do for any other product out there.

In a perfect world you would be right, but we do not live in a perfect world. We live in a society where lifetime smokers sue cigarrete companies after they get cancer because they allege that they did not know smoking was bad for them. Personal responsibilty has gone the way of the dodo in this country.

On a personal note, this is why I REFUSE to prectice personal injury law. I still beleive in personal responsibility.

Ogre

[Danz]

[Trunnion]

just a side note on a comment made by shartley, while you do have be 18 to purchase the paintball guns at walmart, my local walmart has the markers on a shelf directly at eye level out in the open. next to the markers are the pellet guns, in a locked case. also, i believe any responsible parent buying a paintball gun for their child would read the instructions first, which normally include a warning that the marker should ONLY be used when players are wearing certified eye and face protection. of course, this is what a RESPONSIBLE adult would do. there are many out there who don't fall into that category. as for the store clerk, he should be smacked around a bit for placing that child's well being in danger.

[shartley]

[ogre55]

Apples and Oranges my friend. You are using oranges to try to explain how to make apple pie. It only works if people forget that they have little in common aside from being fruits. Same with most of your arguments.

How so? By comparing markers to firearms? In many people's minds there is little to no difference. Or by using the car analogy? Actually I just used your example and expanded on it. Fact is that a car is probably the most dangerous single instrumentanity that most people can or will use. One can, potentially cause as much damage with a car, than one could with a firearm. But they are not nearly as heavily regulated.

Please be specific. Don't just wax poetic about "apples and oranges" and then leave it at that.

Preach on? Yeah? it did sound like preaching. The problem with most preaching is that as long as you get caught up in the rhetoric and ?feeling? you are fine?.

Maybe I am preaching a bit, but that is because this can, potentially, effect me personally. You live in New Hampshire? It's a fairly Republican/Conservative state? Not very urban? Correct me if I'm wrong. Are firearms common in your neck of the woods? Do people care if you own paintball markers?

If I recall, you have access to enough private land to have made your own field. Correct? That's admirable and in fact I am a bit jealous.

I live in Brooklyn and work in Manhatten. There is very little in the way land to play paintball on locally. We have one organized paintball feild in the entire city. Land is too expensive for anyone to own enough of it privately to actually build a field for themselves and their friends. To play, you either have to leave the city or play outlaw.

Further, the city does not approve of the activity. Owners of paintball specialty stores in the city (all one of them in a city of 12 million people) are constantly harrassed by the police and local politicians. The one store owner in the city was actually raided some years ago by the cops and had to fight like hell to have his merchandise returned after the DA had to confess that there was no law on the books regulating paintball markers. (Actually the DA was wrong, but I'll post more on that later when I do some more research.)

So if I am preaching, that is because I feel pretty adamant about the topic. But if you had to deal with what I do, just for some clean harmless fun, brother, you would be preaching too.

As you can see our expereinces are fairly different, even though you are only 2 states away.

But if you LISTEN to what is being said, far too often it has so many holes in it that you could drive a mac truck though it. LOL And this is the case with your latest post.

I am still waiting to be shown the error of my ways here.

Seat belts? You mean Federally mandated safety devices that are required to be in all cars? But that depending on what state you live in, and your age, you can choose to use or not?

Yes those same ones. Those are the minimum safety standards prescribed by law. But do you think that having those in cars prevents people from suing car companies when they think they can? And how do you think car companies defend against such suits? (the ones they don't settle anyway) They try to prove that the car was safe as manufactured by showing that the safety features in the car are above and beyond what the feds precribe and it was the plaintiff's fault.

This is my point. While it may not be the manufacturers legal obliation to have more than the minimum saftey devices in their products, doing so may alleviate possible legal headaches in the long run.

So getting back to the original reason for this exchange, selling cases and/or masks may not be such a bad idea, as Danz originally said.

Ogre

P.S.: It's amazing how these things can get out of hand isn't it?

[speedyejl]

This is a bit off topic, but considering there are alot of people in the New York metro area on this thread. Where do you guys play, I like Advantadge at Coram, and HV in Bay Shore.

[ogre55]

Maybe we should move this one to a separate thread. I'm going to open one up, to keep things organized on this one.

I know this is a moderator move, but it's good to police ourselves.

Ogre

[speedyejl]

Smart Move, ok post where ya play there

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=505054#post505054

[shartley]

Yes, much of this conversation was taken to PM.... and thanks. Good move!

A couple points I think I should make publicly however, are as follows:

I will use Motorcycles as an example since it involves a similar equipment/helmet situation as marker/goggles.

When you purchase a Motorcycle in a State that REQUIRES the use of a Helmet while operating that motorcycle, the manufacturer is not required to provide a helmet with the sale of their motorcycle. It is expected that the operator of that equipment/vehicle know and follow the appropriate laws.

It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure their product is "safe" at the point of sale. What the person does with it AFTER that point is directly the responsibility of the new owner. IE. if they ride without a helmet and get injured where the use of a helmet could have prevented the injury, the Manufacturer would NOT be found at fault.

Same with Paintball Markers.

Now, the second point I need to make is that by requiring the manufacturers to provide goggles with each marker is missing a very important thing. What if you already own a marker and want another one? You will then be required to purchase another set of goggles when you already OWN a pair. Now what about those folks that own 5 or more markers? Will they be required to own the same number of goggles?

On that same note... who is to decide what goggles get sold with what marker?

As I am sure most can see.... this would just be silly.

[Rooster]