paintball law enforcement/military applications

[TippmannMan]

just curious never found out the answer. why do police agencies/military organizations use paintball for training? im not intending to bash my favorite sport :) but paintball is not exactly the most realistic method of simulation in my opinion. first of all theres the whole thing unrealism having the hopper or tube and then the gas whether it be tank or cartridge. and its not like a someone can truly demonstrate his ability with a paintball marker. are the people manufacturing the markers for special law enforcement/military use producing amazing paintball markers that they dont want the public to use? (CONSPIRACY ) why not use airsoft or invest in MILES. maybe is the most cost effective solution but it doesnt seem like it is the best.

[shartley]

Re: paintball law enforcement/military applications

Originally posted by TippmannMan
just curious never found out the answer. why do police agencies/military organizations use paintball for training? im not intending to bash my favorite sport :) but paintball is not exactly the most realistic method of simulation in my opinion. first of all theres the whole thing unrealism having the hopper or tube and then the gas whether it be tank or cartridge. and its not like a someone can truly demonstrate his ability with a paintball marker. are the people manufacturing the markers for special law enforcement/military use producing amazing paintball markers that they dont want the public to use? (CONSPIRACY ) why not use airsoft or invest in MILES. maybe is the most cost effective solution but it doesnt seem like it is the best.

[TippmannMan]

hehe very enlightening. curiousity quelled :)

[Eagle]

Here in the Navy we don't use conventional paintballs for training. We use Simunition: real guns, paint filled plastic rounds, travel around 400 fps. Hurts like hell, but it's good training.

[RAM3139]

Paintball helps in learning to keep a cool head in the middle of intense action. Even if it isn't realistic, it gets the adrenelin flowing and forces you to think at the same time. And hell, maybe they just wanna have fun!

[Seabass]

I was a military policeman in the U.S. Army for 5 years and we used Miles gear alot. It was such a joke though. Took forever to get it properly aligned and sighted properly, most the time they wouldn't even take the time to adjust them correctly cause it's such a pain , then once you do get it adjusted and one nice bump of the sender unit and its all outta whack again. Had to use lots of 100 Mile an Hour tape to get it nice and snug. Then ya had the guys that liked to take the batteries outta their reciever harnesses so it wouldn't go off when ya shot at em. Such a waste of time! I had hoped and prayed during my time there that I'd see an introduction of paintball gear for certain types of Mount training / close quarter combat. However they couldn't spend the $$$. Sure Miles is expensive but heck the Army is already invested in it. They've had it for how many years now? We even talked about the use of the plastic filled bullets for the 9mm but they didn't even want to do that.

As for the mixing of blank ammo and real live ammo, I can personally say that I've seen it happen. And on a couple of instances. We have no idea how live ammo go mixed in with some blanks but thank goodness they caught the mistake before something bad happened.

I'm all for paintball use in Military and Police applications as long as it's for the right types of training, i.e. tactics and close quarter situations. I'm probably missing other senarios but I'm tired. Oh well, There's the Seabass take on it. - Seabass

[Webmaster]

This is more for law enforcment. But paintball and other forms of stress training arent done to see how many times a cop can hit someone in a kill zone. The most important part of cop training is learning WHEN to pull the trigger. Unlike the armed forces, who generally when they engage they know the enemey and have an objective.

As a cop your "battle ground" is full of civilians and innocents. Your "enemy" isnt in a uniform and not often identifiable.

So the use of paint guns in training will allow cops to run through senarios and learn the right time to draw thier weapon and the right time to shoot. This kind of training saves lives - for everyone - cops, civilians, and criminals.

They will spend more hours on the range shooting thier real guns in order to become better shots - not use paintball.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Webmaster
This is more for law enforcment. But paintball and other forms of stress training arent done to see how many times a cop can hit someone in a kill zone. The most important part of cop training is learning WHEN to pull the trigger. Unlike the armed forces, who generally when they engage they know the enemey and have an objective.

As a cop your "battle ground" is full of civilians and innocents. Your "enemy" isnt in a uniform and not often identifiable.

So the use of paint guns in training will allow cops to run through senarios and learn the right time to draw thier weapon and the right time to shoot. This kind of training saves lives - for everyone - cops, civilians, and criminals.

They will spend more hours on the range shooting thier real guns in order to become better shots - not use paintball.

[oldsoldier]

Sam, I wanna add to what you said. We now have desgnated training site where we go before we go on "peacekeeping" missions. One being the JRTC site in LA. There, they teach crowd control and perimeter security, among other things. we, as soldiers, need to be certified in many different things before we deploy to trouble areas. Speaking for myself, it is a hard thing to go from being a combat infantryman to a peacekeeper...they are 2 very separate issues. Some things that we need to consider are; collateral damage, PR stuff (we are ALWAYS being filmed, as US soldiers, everywhere we deploy to), strict ROE (Rules Of Engagement), establishing a good repoire with the locals, protection of US and Allied assets...those type of things are all included in peacekeeping missions. As an infantryman its pretty simple; engage with and destroy the enemy through violence of action. Oh, and it will always be cold, raining, snowing, too hot, or any combination thereof.
The army has tested using paintballs in wargame scenarios; but they dont have the range you need to engage people, and they cannot be modified to fit onto other hardware such as tanks, planes, etc. Yes, we have used them in MOUT training, but, again, they are too limited in regards to range and equipment adaptation to be very effective. Besides, theres nothing worse than having that damn buzzer going off in your ear! Thats motivation enough not to get shot.

[Bulldog]

The arguement is pretty much covered here, if it should even be called an arguement. I'd just like to add that when you use paintmarkers or simunitions, it forces you to take the training scenarios seriously. You really have to pay attention, and try and use and learn the training/tactics.

I've been hit with simunitions, they hurt. Not to mention, it's embarrasing if you get capped in a scenario.

[shartley]

Originally posted by oldsoldier
Sam, I wanna add to what you said. We now have desgnated training site where we go before we go on "peacekeeping" missions. One being the JRTC site in LA. There, they teach crowd control and perimeter security, among other things. we, as soldiers, need to be certified in many different things before we deploy to trouble areas. Speaking for myself, it is a hard thing to go from being a combat infantryman to a peacekeeper...they are 2 very separate issues. Some things that we need to consider are; collateral damage, PR stuff (we are ALWAYS being filmed, as US soldiers, everywhere we deploy to), strict ROE (Rules Of Engagement), establishing a good repoire with the locals, protection of US and Allied assets...those type of things are all included in peacekeeping missions. As an infantryman its pretty simple; engage with and destroy the enemy through violence of action. Oh, and it will always be cold, raining, snowing, too hot, or any combination thereof.
The army has tested using paintballs in wargame scenarios; but they dont have the range you need to engage people, and they cannot be modified to fit onto other hardware such as tanks, planes, etc. Yes, we have used them in MOUT training, but, again, they are too limited in regards to range and equipment adaptation to be very effective. Besides, theres nothing worse than having that damn buzzer going off in your ear! Thats motivation enough not to get shot.

Good addition.. thanks.

Fort Polk... now that brings back memories. Of course it was not JRTC back then.

Now on the topic of Standard Infantry Tactics, and adding Peace Keeping to them..... I only have to say two words, Military Police.... they are some of the best trained soldiers we have, and often times very much unappreciated. Once the Peace Keeping missions started coming down the pipe, it was the MPs that were sent and then augmented with standard Infantry troops, and I am personally happy that the skills that have always been a part of MP training were passed down to other MOS's. It really helps takes the load off.

I can tell you that the MPs were being stretched pretty thin for quite some time. Not only did they have to perform their normal LE duties, but they were being sent off to every hot spot that popped up. And that was all while being a shortage MOS (meaning they were not even at full numbers). They truly have a tough job, and should be thanked more than they are.

Now, for those going into the service and want to get all Whoahhhh..... You will find few units short of the Special Forces that are as heavily armed man for man than the Combat MPs. But they have to put up with long hours and lack of gratitude as well as loads of attitude from other soldiers.

[oldsoldier]

Of course, your standard 11 series groundpounders can be reclassified to do anything...that is out "other" specialty. Thats what happened for our deployment; we were trained as MPs. Hell, if there were a shortage of doctors, guess which MOS gets hit up? Ok, that probably wouldnt happen, but you get the point.
In my career as an infantryman I have done the following; crosstrained in other 11 series; mortar, antiarmor, heavy weapons. Non MOS have included; armorer course, electronics communications (highly abbreviated course), MP course (again, highly abbreviated), and driving schools, pretty much from 5-ton on down. I think we are kinda like "clay" used by the Army; they put us where they need us, give us a very quick "familiarization" course, then the rest is OJT. But, it always makes me appreciate what I do more...I like being cold, wet and miserable

[oldsoldier]

Oh, Sam, they have done away with the combat MPs. They just classify them all as MP now. Same with us, pretty much all 11 series are 11B...you just crosstrain in mortars, antiarmor, heavy weapons, etc. They expect all soldiers to be able to do all the jobs within the series.

[shartley]

Originally posted by oldsoldier
Oh, Sam, they have done away with the combat MPs. They just classify them all as MP now. Same with us, pretty much all 11 series are 11B...you just crosstrain in mortars, antiarmor, heavy weapons, etc. They expect all soldiers to be able to do all the jobs within the series.

[oldsoldier]

lol...BTW, do you work?