Why I like full auto...

[Trench_Riader]

Ok first off let me say I love my model 1451 Rainmaker with a retrofitted select fire board.

I'm also quite fortunate in that two of the three feilds I play at have not over-reacted to supposed safety concerns and still allow full auto fire.

many people (ironicly its often the people who defend full autos) make the statement that a full auto has no advantage over a electo gun with a light trigger. This is clearly nonsense. Full auto fire with a real firearm tends to be less accurate than fast semi-auto fire due to felt recoil. Felt recoil is almost non-existant in most paintball guns. On the the other hand, repeated trigger pulls, even with the lightest of electro triggers, tends to pull the weapon off it's aim. The net effect is that paintball guns behave the exact opposite of how a real firearm on full auto would: full auto is actually more acurate for sustained fire.

In addition, full auto fire is far easier to sustain while on the move than repeated semi-auto trigger pulls. Try to keep up steady area fire at a fast jog or greater if you don't believe me.

Finally, there is the psycological effect. For many players, newer ones more so than experienced ones, incoming full auto fire is intimidating. A sustained full auto burst is far more likely to suppress (or "tuck" for you folks who prefer PC terms to military ones) than a series of unsteady semi-auto shots. This is even more the case when the gun in question is extremely loud...like my beloved Rainmaker.

Granted, a good electro trigger can produce rates of fire a bit higher than most full auto guns. However, most players cannot sustain that rate of fire for any length of time and as noted above accuracy suffers with repeated trigger pulls.

Most of those who are opposed to full auto fire raise the spectre of "over-shooting". This is a valid point. However is one is careful and has the right training, this issue is becomes invalid. For example, I'm ex-military and am experienced in full auto fire. I also own three legal licensed full auto firearms. So as you might expect, I fire in short bursts rather than ripping the whole hopper and do other things that make my full auto both more effective and safer than someone less trained would. But it's not that hard of a skill to learn.

Finally I feel that most fields that ban full auto fire are doing so as a knee-jerk reaction to hysterical claims. I'm all for safety, but safety paranoia is a bad thing. Perhaps a more apropriate aproach would be to restrict full auto fire to mature players who have demonstrated proper skill and fire control?

Am I off base here? What do you think?

Discuss...

"Trench Raider"
yes I use my Minimag on the field that doesn't permit full autos...

RMOG AO BEOG

[FooTemps]

Well, I'm against full auto unless it's for testing...

You say that the overshooting issue can be addressed by practice... How many people do you want to train? You say it's a basic skill to burst fire but inexperienced players tend to freak out and fire like maniacs or hide. You don't want the maniac on full auto... Semi is to keep shots in check so that there is minimal overshooting.

The reason fields don't like full auto is because people are too inexperienced with it and usually can lay half a hopper on one person. Newbie or pro, the player WILL get upset about that. I mean, would you like 20 shots (bounce, hit, whatever) on you? Sure, getting shot 4-6 time isn't bad but it's still bad enough to annoy an experienced player or scare a newbie out of playing paintball ever again.

You see, the full auto issue is not about rof. It's about overall safety. You don't want any hotshots going full auto and putting 20 balls on one player. It might just break out into a fight. It's not good for the field's rep, it's not good for the player's rep, and it's not good for paintball's rep either.

You also mentioned something about making restrictions. I think that restricting full auto to experienced players would be a bit... dangerous... It'll lead to quarrels about who can play full auto and who can't. Not to mention, people can act mature yet still abuse the full auto. Newbs will also think that the full auto is an advantage against them. It may lose business for the field if people feel like they'll always be on the losing team.

Full auto also makes you feel like you should shoot. It's more power, why not use it? It's not practical to shoot so much paint. Yeah, I know people can go through a case a day but it'd more common with full auto. No one really wants to spend so much money.

IMHO, you are wayyy off. Yeah, full auto may be *easier* to play with... but want's easy games? I'd rather play it at a more difficult level that requires more skill. Full auto seems to be more like a crutch to me.

(Yes, I know I'm talking from the field owner's prespective too. Business is business and you want paintball fields to stay alive and you want the sport to grow. Full auto just gets in the way of safety. Fields don't want people to get hurt.)

[Creative Mayhem]

I have to agree/disagree on this one. I like to play with my Angel on F/A, but only when I have EVERYONE'S permission, not just the field's. I there is one person on the field that doesn't like the idea of F/A, then it doesn't happen. I also think F/A is a useful tool during practices, you can get your players used to being under heavy fire easier with F/A. However this is the extent to which I would use it.

I don't care for having tender parts on my body turned into one of picasso's works of art. It's hard enough for excited newbies or experienced players to control the amount of paint they throw at another player. We all know that balls can bounce, so in turn, we add a few more balls just to be certain. Well in F/A, you can't exactly do that because more than your share of balls are on the way, and if you get caught up in the momment, it is extremely easy to fire ungodly amounts of paint.

Now imagine the usual field scenario:

You are at your field with only six other experienced players. They all have full auto, but so do the thrity or so newbies that have come out for their first day of paintball. Now, tell me would you rather have all of those newbies carrying F/A's? I dont think so, we all know that newbies are notoriuous for shooting anyone that moves. I for one wouldn't like that. Or how about you stray into enemy territory and they all have F/A and were lying in wait for you? How would you like three of four players dump on you with F/A's? Think about it... 3 guys shooting 10bps at one target... that turns into 30bps. Now you know that wouldnt only last for a second, they would dump on you with no remorse.

I know this is a little exaggeratd, but with all the cheap electros that are capable of F/A, this may become more common than you think. Do you really want newbies, or less experienced players dump on you? I don't think so.

Should everyone be allowed to have F/A? It's a question only you can answer for yourself. I think it's as you say, up to the field to set rules on F/A, but in the end the responsibility falls on the person with the F/A to use common sense when using it.

This, of course, is just my opinion....


C Mayhem

[kenshinkandon]

A lot of fields that ban full auto aren't doing so because they feel it's unsafe. It's often required by there insurance company. If you or someone else was to use a full auto during a game and someone got hurt and filed for a suit the feild owner would be liable for the suit because the insuracne wouldn't cover the lawsuit due to the feild owner not abiding by the clauses hled within most if not all of paintball insurance contracts.

So you should consider the view of a feild owners that like to make money and have a equal and fair games so that other players that come in a rent equipment can keep up with those who invest a lot of money into there markers. So that all of the players feel challenged and satisfied with there day on the paintball feild.

Other players may also dislike the full auto advantage because there marker is incapable of firing in full auto. You should play fairly and equally if you have to pull the trigger every time you want to launch a paintball sure it may be a hard for you but it's how everyone else on the field is playing why shouldn't you.

[mykroft]

Frankly,

Having seen the rain of paint a properly set up Matrix or Angel in Semi can produce, and having been on the receiving end of most electros in Full Auto, go ahead and cripple your rate of fire.

[Butterfingers]

Trust me you DONT want full auto. Ive gotten myself into Full Auto Games before with the E-magnum and ive walked off the feild bloody. Its just too much especially with what todays guns are capable of...

Repeated hits puts holes in 3/4 inch gypsum board.. in other words it will make you bleed.

Check out...

https://www.butters.org

within a few seconds you have a 8 inch hole in 3/4 in wallboard...

[LawFox32]

a friend of mine told me that if you have the Full auto set to 9bps it is an added phsycological effect b/c when people watch war movies and they see the big 50cal machine guns shooting full auto, those guns shoot around 9 rounds per second, so when they hear that on the field its pretty scary


just a lil input

[Crimson_Turkey]

Our feild allows full auto up to 7bps. I use 5 on my E-98c.

[BajaBoy]

im on both sides.. its nice if your gun isnt maxing its self out on f/a (maybe 5-9bps) but my last june i went with alot of friend to play at jackfrost. We played sup-air, tom had a booyaah on a mag. Wasnt fun for anyone.

when were prac. then i could see a need for it

[mykroft]

Most F/A moarkers are limited to 9 or 13bps. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of an EMagnum, but anything else is no big deal IMHO.

Frankly, apart from testing, I don't see the need for modes. I've never had my Angel out of Semi/B and my Chaos Defiant was only out of Semi by accident a couple of times.

[314159]

a reason that i have heard, which is also a reason i do not like full auto in acutal games is as follows.

paintballs usually shoot in a close group.
with semi you only fire one shot.
with full auto, the gun will cycle as long as the trigger is down.
if an accident happens that would cause someone to loose an eye, they would only loose one probally with a semi. they would probally loose bolth with a full auto gun, because of the grouping of the shots.
loosing bolth eyes is often followed by suicide.

[Trench_Riader]

Several people made good points, but I'll reply to only a few to save space. The thing I love about AO is that we seem to be able to discuss contraversial issues like this rationaly. For an example of the opposite end of the spectrum, go check out the paintball USENET group...

You say that the overshooting issue can be addressed by practice... How many people do you want to train?

As many as needed. The skills needed are fairly easy to aquire. Think about it. Most F/A boards shoot at 9-10 bps or 550-600 rpm. That's the rate of fire of a first or second generation sub machinegun (like my MP40). Controling that rate of fire is simple...even with a real firearm. I tend to keep the RM on f/a in all games that allow it. The rate of fire it's capped at allows me to snap off single shots when needed, but most of the time I fire 6-8 rounds bursts rather than just lay on the trigger. About the only time one shold do that is when providig area fire to hinder movement. (sweet spoting for you PC types..)

More more point before I move on...it was speculated what the effect would be of large amounts of newbies using f/a. Well first off, I feel it should be limited to those who can show the discipline to use it. However should a clueless newbie use such a mode, the end result would probably be similar to an inexperienced person using a real f/a firearm. Ever seen a frist time machinegun shooter? It's amusing. In a paintball game the inexperienced full auto shooter is going to burn all his ammo against an opponet well under cover, not hit a thing, run the hopper dry, and get prompty bunkered while he's reloading.

Yeah, full auto may be *easier* to play with... but want's easy games? I'd rather play it at a more difficult level that requires more skill. Full auto seems to be more like a crutch to me.

I would consider it a tool, rather than a crutch.

A lot of fields that ban full auto aren't doing so because they feel it's unsafe. It's often required by there insurance company

Agreed. HOwever the regs of the insurance company are based presumed problems and safety paranoia rather than the facts. The fact of the matter is that nasty overshoots happen even with a ban on f/a in place. The sensative triggers and high rates of fire of today's electros makes that happen.

Having seen the rain of paint a properly set up Matrix or Angel in Semi can produce, and having been on the receiving end of most electros in Full Auto, go ahead and cripple your rate of fire.

Ah, but how accurate is that high rate of fire? How long can you sustain it?

but in the end the responsibility falls on the person with the F/A to use common sense when using it.

Amen. A point well made.

And i'll close on that...

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG

[halB]

instead of full auto, why not just learn to pull the trigger?

[rdb123]

I airsofted for years before switching to paintball. And yes, most guns do offer full auto. We used them, had fun, no overshooting, etc.

So why would you say it would be different in paintball?

I do agree though that it wouldn't be fun if your position were being hosed by an Emagnum (well darn, retrovalve recharges 26 times a second, scary). Maybe a limit of 7 per second would be good. If not, maybe fields could allow full auto if they made it a requirement that everyone wear chest protectors.

-Ron

[mykroft]

Trench-_Riader:

With a Matrix+Halo B, I can empty the hopper in 1 burst.