Why I like full auto...

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Evil Bob
Jack and Coke...

I know full well that rate of fire dictates how many rounds will be in the air as well as the person pulling the trigger. Go re-read my question again.

What I asked was has anyone tested repeated impacts on a lens in the same location to see what happens to the lens? Do they crack? Do they develope artifacts? Does the impact of the balls hitting cause the players mask to come off?

These are valid concerns, some people are obviously unconcerned with your welfare when they overshoot you.

-Evil Bob

bOB,

My post was NOT intended to answer your questions.

I was just pointing how people confuse FULL-AUTO and ROF as they relate to saftey issues (i.e. "repeated impacts in the same location")

Your questions are good, however, they apply to both FULL-AUTO as well as SEMI.

...Have you seen what full-auto at 20 bps will do?

Why does FULL-AUTO have to be at 20 bps? What about FULL-AUTO at 5-7 bps?

[Jack & Coke]

In regards to the issue of "OVERSHOOTING" consider this...

The primary reasons for "OVERSHOOTING" are:

1. The person pulling the trigger (i.e. untrained, overzealous, jerk, etc.)

2. Rate of Fire

Why didn't I include type of opperation? (i.e. FULL-AUTO, SEMI)

because as they relate to "OVERSHOOTING", they are dependant upon the ROF.

Extreme Examples...

Emagnum full-auto at 20 bps => high chance of "OVERSHOOTING"

Emagnum full-auto at 2 bps => very little chance of "OVERSHOOTING"




Conclusion- "FULL-AUTO" is not the problem, "HIGH ROF" is.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Why does FULL-AUTO have to be at 20 bps? What about FULL-AUTO at 5-7 bps?

It doesn't. If it's rate of fire were limited to 5 (7 is too high) then it MIGHT be okay. Accidents will still involve multiple rounds, but that kid that panics and just holds onto the trigger won't be as much of a problem.

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Conclusion- "FULL-AUTO" is not the problem, "HIGH ROF" is.

Full-auto is still a problem in that accidents involve multiple rounds. However, the lower the ROF the less of a problem it is. ROF by itself isn't the problem. You don't have the accidential multiple rounds problem and you don't have the kid panicing and holding onto the trigger.

[fearc7]

I agree on fealds should allow full auto. I think the answer to the rof problem is to limit rof also, and would actually help out the game. Maybe if you people don't like newbies with F/A, only allow it on speedball or maybe just tournies. I think maybe if we limit the F/A to give or take 10, I would be very pleased.

[Dern]

I agree totally with Jack n Coke, Rate of Fire IS THE REASON WHY PEOPLE ARE AGAINST FULL AUTO. This is a sophism; Semi Auto guns can reach pretty much the same ROF as many full autos now. Even if they can't, are 3-4 balls REALLY going to matter if the rate of fire is above 10?!!?!? In paintball the bottom line is the person behind the gun, not the gun itself. Don't you guys read the yellow warning labels that are slapped on new guns? Ex: "THIS PAINTBALL MARKER IS NOT A TOY. ADULT SUPERVISION RECOMENDED [If you are a jackass who can't use common sense or sympathy]"

If a guy at a field can convince everyone to let him use full auto, he should be able to use it. Of course, the field owner has the last say in the matter, so if the owner of the field says Yes to full auto, lettem play with it.

[hitech]

Originally posted by fearc7
I think maybe if we limit the F/A to give or take 10, I would be very pleased.

I think that if you got bunkered by some kid with a death grip on the trigger at 10 bps you might have a different opinion.

[big E kingpin]

i like being on the sendindg end of my emagnum. only when playing with my frineds though

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by hitech


I think that if you got bunkered by some kid with a death grip on the trigger at 10 bps you might have a different opinion.

What about the pro player walking his fingers on a super fast electro-semi (like a timmy) as he bunkers you, "making sure" he gets the kill?

This is the fault of the opperator, not the gun.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
What about the pro player walking his fingers on a super fast electro-semi (like a timmy) as he bunkers you, "making sure" he gets the kill?

Since he has to move and shoot, I'll bet you would still get hit more times and closer together by the full-auto. Also, there are a much smaller percentage of people who can even do that. Someone MAY do that with a semi-auto. Many people WILL do it if full-auto is generally allowed. Letting loose a two or three second max rate string on someone while bunkering them should get you thrown out of the field. You did it on purpose. The kid just "panicked".

[hitech]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
Holy smokes, I cannot believe the amount of whining I have seen on this thread.

BTW, I don't think I am whining. I use to play at a field where no one (but me) could chrono under 325 (350-375 was "average") when they first set a speed limit. I was also accused of whining when someone was shooting 450 and I refused to go out on the field. I wasn't whining then and I'm not now. I don't think it's safe. Just like I didn't think 450 was safe.

[Trench_Riader]

My god! I go away for two days and come back to see my little thread has exploded. Let me make a few quick points, and I'll call it a day:

blnk162----how very mature. You know, I expected better from this forum. Oh well.....there is a troll in every group I suppose.

The best argument against full-auto (which I agree with) has been about the ability to shoot 1 shot if they wanted to (i.e. bunkering moves). Lower the ROF and it solves this problem.

My Rainmaker is capped at 9 bps on full auto. I have no problem popping off single shots when needed. I don't even click the selector over to semi to crono the gun. If the rof is set at a reasonable rate, (9 bps is 600 prm, which is a common rof for first and second generation sub machineguns, so it's about right)

IMHO the bottom line on f/a is personal responsibility. One has to know what one is doing before setting the selector switch. Furthermore, if a ref sees an unsafe act involving f/a fire (or any mode actually) he shold be willing to eject that person....and prohibit them from using that fire mode in the future.

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by hitech
I think that if you got bunkered by some kid with a death grip on the trigger at 10 bps you might have a different opinion.

Alright, hopefully I have a grip on the modern lingo of paintball...bunkering is when you charge/assault a bunker/prop that has someone behind it, and you point your marker around the corner popping them one, and taking them out of the game, correct? Looked at a couple of "paintball dictionary" sites to make sure, and that was the impression I got, though none of them were really clear.

Assuming that is the case, the anti full-auto/safety concern argument just loses its whole case with me. Shooting somebody that close has got to be one of the stupidest things (especially concerning safety) that I have ever heard. Combine bunkering with full auto and, yes, I see why you are concerned...however its not full auto that's the problem, its the stupid manuver that's allowed that is the problem...if bunkering were not a legal play, would full auto really be of that much concern? I doubt it.

Again, you keep crying 5 bps, and I think that's outrageous, I bet even the newest player could easily crack off 5 bps with an electro. I understand and agree with a ROF cap, but I think that 5 is too low IMO.

Originally posted by hitech
BTW, I don't think I am whining.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it!! {J/K}
Though I disagree with you, you at least present some seemingly valid concerns.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
"repeated impacts in the same location" is a function of ROF and not operation (i.e. Full-auto vs. Semi).

10 bps via full-auto is the same as 10 bps via semi. Your mask lens example will still see 10 balls on impact for 1 second.

Regarding saftey issues of overshooting, most seem to confuse FULL-AUTO with high ROF. You want less impacts in a specific area, lower the ROF. This can easily be done via electro style full-autos.

This, of course is completely wrong, and makes me wonder what the motivation of the poster really is.

Repeated impacts in the same locations has NOTHING to do with rate of fire, and EVERYTHING to do with the marker being aimed at exactly the same spot. I can produce 100 hits in the same spot of a goggle lens with a semi, shooting 1 ball per second.

The reason FA affects this is that FA allows a high ROF while holding the marker on target - the very first post in this thread in fact said this is WHY he wanted FA in the first place. I have been on the receiving end of an RT in sweetspot - and the balls (from one end of an airball court to another) were spread by about 1-2 feet. I have also seen a FA keep the same shot to within a few inches.

At shorter ranges the grouping becomes tight enough to be a problem.

The safety factor hs to do with two things:

1) increased likelyhood of multiple hits in the same location and

2) increased likelyhood of multiple rounds being accidentally discharged.

In fact, the primary reason the insurance companies disallow FA is that independent medical researchers have shown that a single eye hit may lead to injuries ranging from no loss, to partial loss, to complete loss of sight in one eye, but a single burst from a FA could range from complete loss in one eye to complete loss in BOTH eyes. Interestingly enough, the case they worry about the most is NOT during play, but during non-play. No matter how sensitive your trigger, the likelyhood of that from a semi is far less than with FA.

There is and has been ample evidence and discussion of this issue on this forum and others. Without exception, it has been made clear that FA is a bad idea - its not safe, and that is the biggest argument.

Please feel free to play with FA at any field that will let you, but rest assured you will not see ME there.

FatMan

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by Dayspring
So I suppose that Tom Kaye, being one of the manufacturers that is leading the charge against full auto makes him a whiner too huh?

Hey Dayspring, is that the same Tom Kaye that said this:

"Accuracy by volume has been and will remain the best way to score eliminations." -Tom Kaye

Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by FatMan


This, of course is completely wrong, and makes me wonder what the motivation of the poster really is.

Huh? No secrete motivation here buddy. This is a forum for discussion and expressing opinions. I have mine, and you have yours. Try to deal with it. Please try to keep the discussion on topic and not personal.

Repeated impacts in the same locations has NOTHING to do with rate of fire, and EVERYTHING to do with the marker being aimed at exactly the same spot. I can produce 100 hits in the same spot of a goggle lens with a semi, shooting 1 ball per second.

I think you completely missed the point. I was talking about real game playing conditions where movement and dynamics are involved.

With a HIGH ROF you are more likely to get multiple hits in the same location than a LOW ROF.

FA is not the problem here because it's effectiveness is DEPENDENT upon the ROF.

Do you really think FA @ 5 bps would yield more overshooting than today's hair trigger electro semi's @ 15bps?

SUMMARY regarding FA vs HIGH ROF for those too lazy to read ALL of my posts...

- I am NOT FOR NOR AGAINST FA or HIGH ROF. I like to play pump as well as speed ball with my 15-18bps guns (GZ Timmy, Retromag, Tippy RT)

- I read people's arguments against FA, and I disagree with them. I think they blame things for the wrong reason.

- I think FA is not the problem in regards to protential overshooting - super high ROF and user descretion is.

one more time...

Emagnum full-auto at 20 bps => high chance of accidentally "OVERSHOOTING" your opponent.

Emagnum full-auto at 2 bps => very little chance of accidentally "OVERSHOOTING" your opponent.

As you can see (if you're not too blinded by your own opinions) ROF IS the determining factor. Reduce ROF and FA in a non-issue.

The solution for soothing overshooting concerns lies in finding an acceptable and safe ROF.

I think today's super fast hair trigger electro semi's are shot with such skill and enthusiasm, that they produce the same effectiveness of "full-auto" style shooting.

Remember... This is my opinion. If you diagree - that's ok! But please don't try to insinuate that I have "motives" here... pfffft.