Tom, and agd and their crack team of designers, what can we do a? e-mag hybrid bounce

[magman007]

Tom, im assuming you mean regular mag on off pins? If this is so, how can weget them down to the correct length? or can i contact some one at the factory (jon or JJ) and ask em to ground me down one For my SFL? or do you mean use the stock mag pin length as well? also, what do we do about the quad o-ring? will the new pin fit into that?, or do we need to remove it?

[AGD]

Now that I am thinking about it, for manual guns the straight pin will work. For Emags we will have to make a straight thin on/off pin. Its not the length its the diameter.

AGD

[PsychoBaller]

Well......

E-Mode is aight for my SFL with TL63 trigger; it's short and light, but still one shot one pull....

Tom....maybe we need some sort of Tourny Lock idea for the Selector Switch so we can't switch from Emode to Manual and back without a tool? I think that would be a good idea to look into.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

What about the guys with rt/ReTro/RT Pro mags? Are they just screwed? I thought RT was allowed.

[Hexis]

The same principal applies to any RT/RTPro/ReTro/EMag/XMag valve. Change the cross section of the top of the on/off pin, and you change the 'reactivity'. So, a slightly different on/off assembly and all of those valves are totally legal, with no 'reactivity' to the trigger..

[raehl]

Well... TECHNICALLY...

What you guys are talking about isn't "trigger bounce". Bounce is an effect when you have a circuit which is closed by two conductive contacts. When you close the switch, the contact points bounce slightly and you actually get a series of very fast open/closed events - even if you apply a constant pressure with your finger, it still bounces, sort of like trying to push a bowling ball against a brick wall - unless you roll the ball VERY GENTLY, it's going to bounce off the wall a bit a couple times before you can get it resting against the wall. What would happen with some electronic markers (I think the schoker turbo was the first to have this problem) is that instead of only firing on the first open/closed cycle of the switch and then ignoring any other trigger events until that cycle was done, it would "buffer" the subsequent bounces and then fire an additional paintball for each of the events after the first cycle was done. And the way the rules used to be written, this was perfectly legal, because only one ball was being fired per trigger event.

So the rule was rewritten to the way it is now to make trigger bounce illegal.

Now, what the E-Mag does is *NOT* trigger bounce. The HAL sensor doesn't have trigger bounce - your trigger goes "through" the contact point, the circuit is open, then closed, and it stays closed until you release the trigger. The Angel has another way of doing this - it breaks an IR beam, again, no bounce - the point is that the "closed" position isn't at the extreme end of the trigger movement; your trigger moves THROUGH the "closed" point instead of bouncing against it.


The reason the E Mag can run afoul of the rule is that you could pull the trigger with, say, 2 pounds of force, and then the RT kicks back with 4 lbs of force, pushing the trigger back - and the the RT force wears off, so now your 2 lbs of force from your finger pushes the trigger back again - so a constant 2 lbs of force from your finger results in shot after shot after shot. The trigger cycles completely with each shot, but since your finger is never releasing the force, you run afoul of the new rule.


The solution is to make sure that the force required to pull the trigger back is always greater than the force the RT pushes back on the trigger - and making the cross sectional area of the on/off pin is one way to do this. (Making your trigger pull harder would be another.) Force is equal to pressure times area, so reduce the area, less force.


Personally, what the E Mag does doesn't bother me - unless you're putting force on the trigger, the marker isn't firing. The big problem with the shocker was that you could release the trigger, but the marker wouldn't stop firing until it ran through any events in the buffer - a big safety no-no. If we're going to have rules where people are allowed to shoot as fast as they can, we might as well just let everyone shoot fast and let games be decided by something other than how fast your trigger finger is.


Or my personal favorite solution, make everyone play stock.


- Chris

[PsychoBaller]

Yo RAEHL.......

See the problem we are talking about his HYBRID mode... or at least in my above post I forgot to mention. E-Mode works just fine and is legal... however.... with the flick of the switch, any Emag can be switched into Manual with Electronics still on = Illegal bounce. Even in manual mode, there is some bounce to the trigger, as it runs in RT Mode.

I thought originally about a Selector Switch Tourny Lock... but then we can't use the advantage of Emags to switch into Manual if our electronics go down in mid-game... so scrap that idea.

~da baller

[raehl]

Right. I'm not disputing where the problem is, just that it's not what has traditionally been referred to as trigger bounce. With trigger bounce, you'd get the extra shots without the trigger (perceptively) moving at all once you pulled it. You'd pull it once and get 3-8 trigger events and multiple shots because the miniscule bounce of the switch contact points would create multiple trigger events for one movement of the trigger back and forward.

With the emag, the trigger DOES move forward and back with each shot - it's just that it doesn't move forward because you release the force applied by the finger. It moves forward because the RT force is GREATER than the pull force. And that runs afoul of rules that were rewritten to make triggerbounce illegal.

- Chris

[PsychoBaller]

Well...

Since I have a TL63 trigger, and they dont work in manual mode, I wouldn't mind some sort of mockup tourny lock on the selector switch, since I cant go back into Manual anyways.... heh.

Guess I'll wait till the new Pins are avail.

[Jonesie]

Re: Well...

Originally posted by PsychoBaller
Since I have a TL63 trigger, and they dont work in manual mode, I wouldn't mind some sort of mockup tourny lock on the selector switch, since I cant go back into Manual anyways.... heh.

Guess I'll wait till the new Pins are avail.

You're TL63 trigger doesn't work in manual mode? That's messed up! I just installed mine last night. I'll have to try firing it with the electronics off...

Originally posted by cledford
Personally, the only Emags I see that bounce in hybred were messed with to begin with. Same goes for E mode (I've seen it bounce also) so why not adjust the trigger rod to correct length and not worry about it?

I was able to pull 14bps over the chrono @ MGO on my totally stock E-Mag with X-Valve in Hybrid. Stock trigger and everything. Unless Tunaman messed with it before he shipped it to me, it was factory... And I was gettin mucho trigger bounce with ~ 800psi in from the Flatline.

Later ~ Jonesie

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by cledford
...You know it's funny how it seems like there is a witch hunt for AGD guns anyhow. Especially since Jim Drew DESIGNED his board to make it easier to bounce (I don't care what he says) and yet he is getting invited to "select" meetings on the issue of trigger bounce...
-Calvin

FYI...

From: http://www.wickedairsportz.com/news.htm

(02/11/03)

NPPL Asks Jim Drew to Attend Rules Committee Meeting

The NPPL asked Jim Drew, President of Wicked Air Sportz to attend a crucial rules committee meeting concerning rules for the 2003 NPPL season, with the emphasis on trigger bounce. After more than an hour of explanations and talk, the NPPL has decided that any form of trigger bounce is completely illegal. Previous events allowed an occasional double-shot due to marker recoil. This is no longer being allowed. Chrono judges were trained to use several methods to test for trigger bounce, and markers were being turned away for being illegal during the Huntington Beach event.



Looks like Jim Drew's paintball expertise, insight, knowledge, opinion, and credibility are regarded a wee bit higher by NPPL than by AO...

[magman007]

so tom, when can we get this special trigger pin?

[xen_100]

not to sound simplistic here......but I have heard if you turn your tank down to like 600PSI, the gun works just fine, but has little (if any) reativity. why is this not a viable solution?

[Hexis]

Input pressures that low do not mix well with Level 10 setups.

[Mobius V]

Did they ever come out with these new pins?