Aluminum Classic valve?

[Python14]

I just found out I have access to a mill and lathe so I'm considering trying my hand at making new internals for the Python Mag out of Aluminum. It will ofcoarse be level 10, but no RT because I am cheap. Has anyone tried this before?


BTW, if there is any question, yes, I was dropped on my head when I was a baby

[cphilip]

Your nutz!

Have you seen all the close tolerance things going on in that change over to the Aluminum? I mean the chamber had to be changed to accomadate the inside threading of the PT tip parts and the PT tip had to be changed to thread in there...
Look at an X Valve before you even start and compair them. They are not the same as you think. They both end up the same in performance but they get there a slightly different way.

It's not easy and with the close tolerances that have to be maintaned on the mag its very critical to do that. You will be in for a very difficult time doing this on a simple mill and getting it even close.

These things are done on one of the most sophisticated milling machines I ever saw. The ultimate Dremel I called it. Absolutely amazing. Good luck duplicating one of those quarter million dollar machines with a lathe and mill.

Not trying to discourage you at all...

[Python14]

I'm really looking for an excuse to go to the machine shop. Technically I'm not allowed in there because I'm not a Governors school student, but lilsnowpixie is so she can probably get me in. I am just gonna try and see how close I can get with it. I will however try and take a sluggo in and see what I can about milling off access weight. I am just gonna experiment and try and develope some machining skills to compliment my welding skills.


BTW, Mr. Kaye, no need to worry about me making copies of your wonderful design. I can barely write my name with a dremel in my bench vice. I'll be lucky if I can get the threads to match up on the powertube tip. I'm just seeing what I can do.

[Cristobal]

I think what cphilip (as a moderator of AGD's board) is trying to say is that you'd better not go into something like that lightly... if you screw up and it blows up in your face when you shoot I don't think he or AGD will be very sympathetic

With that said, I'm going to take exception to cphilips logic about milling machines. Good machinists on good manual machines used to do lots of stuff that is done on cnc machines today. The change isn't so much about precision, but about speed -- and hence profit. I will grant you that there's lots of stuff done on CnCs that would be nigh on impossible otherwise, but I don't think the a mag valve falls into this category. Just because the x-valves are made on super-fancy-expensive machines doesn't mean that sombody who knew what he was doing couldn't use precision mics and much more humble manual machine to make one. You just have to know what you're doing.

My only caution to anybody who works with a compressed air vavle is that he or she had better know what they are doing on the machine -- and more importantly know how changing materials will change how the valve has to be engineered. Oftentimes the most dangerous design blunders are the in little details somebody didn't catch.

[nerobro]

cphilip, how do you think the first mags were made? :-) I bet he could do it. it may take a few tries, but I bet he could do it. Heck ther'es another company that made cloned airs.... Course AGD ran them out of buisness ;-)

Nicad has already made an aluminum AIR clone... you might want to talk to him a little. There are some wear issues using an aluminum powertube. That's why the x-vavles have the SS powertube screwed on.

When AGD was trying to make ALuminum AIR's they couldn't used the normal "inside' threaded valve body and had to make the powertube screw over the aluminum part. Beacuse the aluminum body would strech a little and leak around the powertube section. (thats my hint for the day tee hee hee)

Just to restore some confidence.. it's been done before ;-) but if I were you, I'd still use AGD guts in this air of yours.

[cphilip]

Well you can take exception to it if you like but these things are holding tolerances to a millionth of an inch. Most hand held measuring devices cannot do this. However some milling machines can (certainly the ones Tom's vendor uses do) but most of those are computerized and I was not certain he had access to one of those. I may have assumed to much there though.

And tolerances of all the things on a Mag are so important. And so is the changes you have to make on a Mag to go from SS to Aluminum. He needs to be aware that it was not just simply changing the metal used. It was more than that. And its a combination of metals using more Aluminum than before. And the changes were critical in how those two types of material were joined that makes all the difference. Its not simply a matter of making the same parts out of Aluminum. It had to be re-Engineered.

I was not addressing the liability issues at all. Thats not my place to do so. Tom will do that.

[hitech]

Try just making the back "half" first. It should be much easier and still provide some weight savings. If you can do that easily and well, then maybe think about a bigger challenge (the front "half").

[cphilip]

Good Idea! The back half would be easier if you wanted to settle for that part.

That is why I told him to look real close at an X Valve compaired to an older RT/EMag to see how it was done. A lot of changes up front for sure.

[Russ]

Walking into a machine shop and building a precision part is about as easy as sitting down at a piano and playing a Mozart concerto...

yes, it can be done, but you really need to know what your doing around the machinery, how to hold the parts, what tools to use, and in what sequence, etc. etc. Cutting those threads will be fun.

Russ, a Tool & Die maker for the last, oh, 26 years or so ...

[paintballbeaver]

actually there was a guy about 3-4 months back who made one and it worked fine so i would do a search and see if you cant find that thread and go from there make sure to get it anoed though so it dosent detirerate.... lmk how it goes

[Python14]

I am sitting here taking apart everything and I think what I will try instead is to work on making my body vert feed. Which will really just be some precision hardfacing work and milling a new groove in my barrel.

[dansim]

what is all teh hubbub about a few onces anyway, if you really want to improve yer game mill your self some weights and build them biceps lol

[Python14]

It's not that I want to save weight or whatever, I just want to see if I can do it. Metalwork and welding is one of my few talents so I figure, hey, why not try machining too?

I chose aluminum, even tho I'm not gonna do a valve yet, because it is easier for me to get raw aluminum stock than stainless is

[xen_100]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well you can take exception to it if you like but these things are holding tolerances to a millionth of an inch. Most hand held measuring devices cannot do this. However some milling machines can (certainly the ones Tom's vendor uses do) but most of those are computerized and I was not certain he had access to one of those. I may have assumed to much there though.

And tolerances of all the things on a Mag are so important. And so is the changes you have to make on a Mag to go from SS to Aluminum. He needs to be aware that it was not just simply changing the metal used. It was more than that. And its a combination of metals using more Aluminum than before. And the changes were critical in how those two types of material were joined that makes all the difference. Its not simply a matter of making the same parts out of Aluminum. It had to be re-Engineered.

I was not addressing the liability issues at all. Thats not my place to do so. Tom will do that.

I would like to see some proof of that... 1/1,000,000 of an inch? come on? there is nothing on this earth that could repeatably mill or lathe something to that close of a standard. all you have to have is a VERY slight amount of wear on your tool and it will go out serveral 1/10,000ths of an inch. I think that is a little exagerated.

we're not talking about tolerances thatr are that close anyway. if they were an air valve would cost alot more than $300!

[Cristobal]

wow, this has turned into quite the spirited discussion -- there must be a machining bug going around AO right now.

cphilip: exception taken, but no offense intended. I'm sorry if I miss-represented your cautionary note

In any case I'm in agreement that building a custom aluminum valve is no simple endeavor. Better to start small like Hitech suggested. I do think it would be interesting to know what the tightest tolerance is, though. Just for fun, maybe I'll have to go mic some of the parts in my classic valve (alas, no x)