Best blowback thread

[TreeFarm]

Not sure yet Koosh, my bro is going to be in town from Cali for the weekend, so its wait and see at the moment to see if I will have time to come up or not.

[nerobro]

the Truth....

anything in superbugmans collection ;-) here's the link Superbugmans guns

Check out those blowbacks ;-)

they're some really nice guns.

As for from the factory... the Omen is probally the best blowback out there.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Interesting site, but "The simplicity and reliability of their design " caught me a little off. Wouldn't that be Sheridans design?

[Mav D MagMan]

Originally posted by LittlePaintballBoy


actually, if you shot the same paint out of the same barrel on both guns the accuraccy would be the same

Correct but missing the elements I already pointed out.

Consistency - Better machined internals/higher quality springs/valve designs yield more consistent markers.

If that samurai is deviating 10+/- fps every shot while that omen is doing less like say 3+/- (made up numbers) The omen will be shooting more accurate (the paint's following a closer trajectory)

Unless mounted on a test stand recoil is important to - Ever shot a "low-end" blowback? They kick like mules from overly heavy internals. That can throw accuracy off a bit to

Mav

[hAppy]

i say spyders are pretty decent guns!
basically a tl plus is the easiest and probably the best blowback

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Mav D MagMan


Correct but missing the elements I already pointed out.

Consistency - Better machined internals/higher quality springs/valve designs yield more consistent markers.

Mav

AKA was origianlly intending the viking to be a blowback.

they abandoned that project. It turns out when you build a blowback as preciscely as AKA insists, you get velocity and consistancy PROBLEMS!!! so "better machined internals" is actually a problem for spyders and other blowbacks.

[Mav D MagMan]

Then why would polished internals improve performance?

Not disagreeing, just wondering. Hasn't it always been viewed as a performance enhancer, even in blowbacks?

Or is there something different in machining the parts too well that I can't come up with. Blowbacks are meant to be tough and rugged

Mav

P.S. Lol that's funny, I spent my 500th post repeating myself, woohoo

[p8ntballsnowman]

Definetly tippmann

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Mav D MagMan
Then why would polished internals improve performance?

Show me data supporting polished internals helps "preformance" in some way ;-) I've never seen any.

and polishing the internals removes metal widening the tolerances in an uneven manner. so you're actually taking the gun further out of spec ;-)

[Mav D MagMan]

Lol, I have no data, just 2nd hand information that it does help performance.

Good point though

I see it often actually, guess I'll have to give it a whirl on my "testing" F4 (in comparison to my good F4).

Smart thinking!
Mav

[boggerman]

Most of my buddies shoot blowbacks of some type. My experience would list them like this:
1. F4 Illustrator - I'm with Mav on this one
2. Piranha/Tippman - it's a toss-up between these two
3. Spyder







109. Rebel - ball-chopin', inconsistant
110. ViewLoader - see above



157. B.E.

This is just my opinion from what I have seen. Take it for what it is worth.

[Jerhew]

since this is a blowback discussion and accuracy/consistancy has come up... someone has to point out the fatal flaw in blowbacks...

i guess it'll be me (sorry guys don't flame me )

here's the problem...
when the gun is fired the striker(or hammer or...whatever you wanna call it) is pushed forward by the mainspring and hits the pin on the valve letting out a burst of air...(this isn't the problem part yet..)
in fact that's exactly how a cocker works...
except for one vital difference...
on a cocker, the hammer isn't connected to anything else so
it (theoretically) hits with the same force everytime...letting out the same amount of air...which is why cockers are usually pretty consistent(as long as everything is working the way it ought to)
on a blowback the hammer is connected to the bolt...so when you fire the gun the bolt/hammer combo has to force the ball forward into the chamber before the hammer can do it's job...since balls vary in size and probably tend to bobble around a little you will have a variance in friction...and hence a variance in the force put forth to the valve.... hence poor consistency
this varies from gun to gun...no question about it

this brings me to the part where someone mentioned the whole "better machined internals" thing
i'm not sure what is meant by "better" but i imagine they tried to make it with a lighter mainspring to make it a so called "low pressure" marker
by making a blowback low pressure...all you're really doing is enhancing it's biggest weakness! with a softer spring, you're making friction a bigger issue(see freeflow 'cockers)
bottom line:
blowbacks are better off with heavier mainsprings

[Jerhew]

oh ya
IMO
the best blowback was the tippman pro-lite/carbine
i bought my new in 97
they're total freakin' tanks
i abused my pro-lite so bad it's not even funny...
and i've still never changed a single O-ring!
if it ever stopped working you just spray some good ol' wd-40 on the hammer and you're good to go
i sold it to a friend last year and it still works to this day.

[Mav D MagMan]

OT
Well dude he did ask for opinions on the markers, not their operation. And specifically asked for people not to do that...

You're right about the way a stacked tube blowback performs but why bother cluttering this thread?

No by better machined internals I had no interest in springs at all (or anything like a low-pressure operation). Mostly that the rough trash strikers etc of a shelf blowback, compared to that of a mid range/higher end blowback is quite different and effect performance.

I guess I should have said quality, but an interesting point was made by nerobro because of my mistake.

As for quality - ever seen a low end BE shear off it's sear/striker edges? It's a real shame, I've seen it done in just a few months/couple cases of paint use. Reason being my F4 has seen four years of use and still retains a good crisp sear/striker edge.

And dude Jerhew you know that WD 40 actually eats paintball o-rings right? I'm glad that prolite's a tank because you're probably would have done a number on a lesser built marker!

You were right on one thing though, blowbacks perform better on stronger mainsprings. It allows for a lighter striker (less recoil) while still maintaining the force to open the valve for the correct dwell

Mav

*edit* almost forgot - your post about consistency - If a string of 264, 262, 264 isn't good enough with my F4 then I'm not too sure what is (running HPA but still had a bad paint-barrel match)

[Jerhew]

Re: Best blowback thread

Originally posted by no_doz
do NOT post with messages like "they are all the same" "they all suck" or "this is a stupid thread" because those may be your opinions, and i really dont care to hear them, as for the rest of you... Thanx for looking!

well i didnt just come here and bash blowbacks...
i expressed some thoughts that are relevant to the dicussion

especially
when nero said

AKA was origianlly intending the viking to be a blowback.

they abandoned that project. It turns out when you build a blowback as preciscely as AKA insists, you get velocity and consistancy PROBLEMS!!! so "better machined internals" is actually a problem for spyders and other blowbacks.

i took it to mean lower pressure since an increase precision itself would NEVER cause velocity problems...

so i felt it was prudent for the people who might have actually thought that "precision" causes "problems" and go off and buy a stingray just because it's not precision made :P