Separating the individual from the Company (AGD)

[hitech]

Most of us do this. Think of Airgun Designs and Tom as two separate entities. We separate the man from the company. However, Tom IS AGD. He IS the company. He does NOT make that separation. When you slam AGD, it is a personal insult to Tom. Constructive criticism is necessary. However, far too many people here attack the company and forget that they are also attacking Tom.

He shouldn't, but anyone who has spoken to Tom at any length has probably realized that Tom takes what is said here VERY personally. It's only the internet. People tend to "hide" behind the anonymity of the internet. If you wouldn't say it in person, maybe you should rethink saying it here.

I'm not trying to say that your shouldn't speak you mind. Constructive criticism is important. Slamming/bashing is not necessary. How to tell the difference? Try substituting Tom Kaye for Airgun Designs and see if it's what you really wanted to say. Also, sometimes HOW you say something is more important that WHAT you say.

[Meph]

This supposed to be a new thread, or did you mean to post in the PSP Chicago thread?

Not sure, just seems like that thread inspired this. Fitting for there.

[Kevmaster]

um....OK?

[GT]

Hitech,

Well that was a nice thought and all but.... In the real world lets say the boss has problem with my work ethics. the boss repramands me. Lets assume that the boss is a buddy of mine. Now am I going to piss and moan at him after wrok at happy hour because I got in a little trouble? Porbally not.

So I agree with the statement:

If you wouldn't say it in person, maybe you should rethink saying it here.

Infact this statement works on so many levels. However if there is a product that AGD comes out with that I dont like I will certainly let AGD with a description of the issue rather than a "this sux" post.

I completely disagree with the Tom is AGD statement. I think AGD is something much greater than a single person. It has developed over the years with input from a great number of folks from the lovely ladies that answer the phone to the guys working on the guns. IS Tom an important part of this? You bet! Is he the only one that runs the show? I don't think so.

Side note: I have said this time and time again, that Tom's energy maybe better suited for company issues rather than AO. I will absolutly ask him about cost recovery of AO at the meet and some other questions, if I remember.

jb

P.s. Good lord I am starting to ramble on and on and on like Shartly does

[hitech]

Originally posted by gtrsi
I completely disagree with the Tom is AGD statement. I think AGD is something much greater than a single person.

While that is true, that is not how Tom feels. When someone attacks his company, they are attacking him. It doesn't matter one bit if they say "AGD" or "Tom". At least, that is how I see it.

So, my point is when posting replace "AGD" with "Tom" and see if you would be willing to say it to Tom in person. If not, maybe you should rethink it (you being generic).

Tom really shouldn't take our opinions to heart as much as he does. However, he really, really cares and it can be his Achilles Heel.

[Muzikman]

I agree with hitech. The many times I have talked with Tom he has even stated that he takes what is said on here personaly. It's only natural or the owner of a company take things personal when they things are said about his or her company.

look at it this way, people take things personaly when you say things about his or her marker:)

[reefer madness]

if i say i love agd i actualy love tom

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

separation

Tom is the owner and president of AGD, meaning he should be proud of his creation but is still responsible for the business side and business is not always nice and kind. If he can't stand negative feedback, he should withdraw himself from the customer service/forum side of the business more because it's expected and understandable in any market and business. Sad but true.

Tom can find all the "Yes men" in the world in his office and tons in the forums here. But what would happen if some people didn't tell him the things that didn't work, ideas that wouldn't fly, and be realistic and "stress-test" things by being aggressively critical. If a product flops (roller trigger) hey, that's life and business. I can name a hundred products that have done just that. Forum people name ideas they would probably like, but why should they be held accountable for if it sells or whether it's going to end up being a failure? That's marketing's job and they should be the ones being yelled at because they're hired to identify demand.

If a product's defective, who's to blame, the players who said "I like that idea" when it was presented to them by Tom or the people who actually got paid to engineer it and didn't catch on to the flaw?

Forum people actually pay for Tom's products, they're not just given them, to help Tom out and risk having a flawed product, such as the first ULE bodies which required a temporary fix but led to the correction in future bodies, and if they weren't critical about the flaws AGD would have had dozens of Superbolt 1 equivalents. Do they get a free perfected one? NO! They did Tom a free favor so yelling at us when a product doesn't do well is Tom taking things too personally.

So hitech.... I totally agree with being more courteous and respectful in how you present criticism, but if we just stood around saying "oh yeah Mr. Kaye the product is perfect" just so you don't hurt his feelings, it's going to hurt more when the flaws we could have identified and avoided make it to the general market. And regarding missed events, it obviously hurt people's impressions and some had tech issues that could have been resolved if AGD was there, and isn't the FORUM the place to address those issues? If Tom and the moderators want this to be a sweet, no critism allowed forum, I'll be the first to tell them where to stick my screenname because I don't want to be involved in that at all. I'm here to learn about the Mag I've spent hundreds on, which I could do without posting, but I post to contribute and help AGD out by either providing ideas or providing constructive criticism as well as support. If that's not welcome, that's pathetic. AO has driven the success of recent products and is occupied by the people who provide the majority of your revenue, don't bite the hand that feeds.

Yes this was a rant, but notice I didn't cuss or personally insult anyone. I simply presented my view. That is what a forum is for. Not kissing the butt of the owner.

[hitech]

Re: Separating the individual from the Company (AGD)

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Tom is the owner and president of AGD... If he can't stand negative feedback, he should withdraw himself from the customer service/forum side of the business...

There is a difference between constructive criticism (negative feedback) and bashing. I posted my thoughts on how to tell the difference.

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Tom can find all the "Yes men" in the world in his office and tons in the forums here.

Not looking for "Yes men". What I was trying to say is:

Originally posted by hitech
I'm not trying to say that your shouldn't speak you mind. Constructive criticism is important. Slamming/bashing is not necessary. How to tell the difference? Try substituting Tom Kaye for Airgun Designs and see if it's what you really wanted to say. Also, sometimes HOW you say something is more important that WHAT you say.

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
If we just stood around saying "oh yeah Mr. Kaye the product is perfect" just so you don't hurt his feelings...If Tom and the moderators want this to be a sweet, no criticism allowed forum,

No one is suggesting that anyone do that or wants that.

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Not kissing the butt of the owner.

No butt kissing going on here.

I believe that many, many people here do not realize that when they are bashing AGD they are bashing Tom personally. I believe that many people here do not realize how personally Tom takes the opinions of the people here. ALL I wanted to do was make as many people here aware of this as possible. What each person does with this information is strictly up to the individual. I'm just sharing the information

[Blazingace]

Screw these haters!!!! I don't bash. Not AGD, not anybody. Even when I got two bad tanks from System X did I not bash them? If you have a problem you explain it and there are plenty of people that would try to help. I won't say that I never have a problem with my 'Mags, but I don't piss and moan about it. My guns usually work flawlessly, but when they don't I get frustrated. I don't hammer Tom or AGD for my problems. I fix them and go about whuppin' on people with my AGD products. Some people don't know how to take care and use what they have.

[hitech]

I'm not trying to get people to not bash AGD (not in theis thread at least ). I'm only trying to make people aware of the fact that they are also bashing Tom personally when they do so. Also, I wanted them to know that he takes what is said here personally. I think it is important for everyone to realize that.

Maybe it's only important to me.

[MarkM]

Originally posted by Blazingace
Screw these haters!!!! I don't bash. Not AGD, not anybody.

Sounds good so far....

Originally posted by Blazingace
Screw these haters!!!! I don't bash. Not AGD, not anybody. Even when I got two bad tanks from System X did I not bash them?

Ah seems you do bash people and just did

To keep this more in topic, I did post a while ago about perceived faults and AGD and I must have been on the money as not one person quoted me or even commented. Unless Tom comes on here and complains about the lack of support from the forum..he has but only in so far as the lack of sales of a certain trigger mod that didn't sell after everyone yelled they wanted one, then how are we as the forum to know where the line is drawn. Do you keep quiet about something you have found that is wrong or you think to be wrong. This isn't a guestbook that will be full of nice little thank you notes, it is a place for the creation and improvement of ALL paintball products and the associated rulings that go alongside the game. Tom does indeed keep his two hats seperate, where is he now? digging up dinosaur bones and has said thats what he is doing, you can be sure he isn't thinking too much about the company when he is scraping in the dirt. Final decisions of course rest with Tom but unless he receives feedback would he still be in the paintball game?

[hitech]

Originally posted by MarkM
This isn't a guestbook that will be full of nice little thank you notes, it is a place for the creation and improvement of ALL paintball products and the associated rulings that go alongside the game.

I'm not trying to suggest that anyone keep to themselves. I just want everyone to realise that Tom takes comments about AGD the same as he does comments about Tom Kaye. And that he takes what is said here to heart. I'd like everyone to think about it that way before posting. That's it.