Electronics question: solenoids and power.

[Sparks]

Is the amount of power a solenoid uses determined by the resistance that solenoid has to push against, or is the amount of power used by a solenoid a fixed amount of energy every cycle that depends on voltage and draw?

The reason i'm asking, is that i'm wondering if with a ULE trigger whether my e-mag will get more shots per battery simply because there is less resistance on the solenoid and it will use less power per cycle. I could see an argument for either side, so if anybody who actually knew for a fact could let me know that'd be great. Thanks

-Adam

[Muzikman]

I am no electronics geek, but I believe that a solenoid will draw the same no matter what the load. So with the new ULE trigger, I don't think that it will save battery life, but what it could do is let AGD use a MUCH smaller 'noid which would then increase battery life and save space in the frame. I might be totally wrong, but that is my guess from the little knowledge I have.

[xen_100]

a seliniod is just a coil of wire. it will draw the exact same amount of current for a given voltage.

example:

the E-mag uses a 18 volt battery. if the noid resistance is 10 ohms, it will draw 1.8 amps every shot. now this is only a 20-30mS draw, but that is how much it would be.

with the new ULE trigger, muzicman is right, they could use a less powerfull noid and get away with less power useage. they could also use the same noid and lower the battery voltage going to the noid and lower power useage.

[sniper1rfa]

right, solenoids do not change the current draw with varying loads, but they do get hot and start drawing less. however, when they heat up, they become lexx powerful.

[Star_Base_CGI]

How much power electric motors use depends on 2 things.

How thick the wire is.
How many winds in the coil.

You can have thicker wire and it will use more juice.
Thinner wire will take more juice but probably get hotter.

So you can guistimate tradeoffs for turns on a motor versus wire thickness.

Micronization is making motors smaller all the time. Till the wire is thin as a hair and maybe even smaller.

Oh yeah and much power it takes to do the job in x amount of time. WHich pretty much brings you back to 1 and 2.

[sniper1rfa]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
How much power electric motors use depends on 2 things.

How thick the wire is.
How many winds in the coil.

You can have thicker wire and it will use more juice.
Thinner wire will take more juice but probably get hotter.

So you can guistimate tradeoffs for turns on a motor versus wire thickness.

Micronization is making motors smaller all the time. Till the wire is thin as a hair and maybe even smaller.

Oh yeah and much power it takes to do the job in x amount of time. WHich pretty much brings you back to 1 and 2.

Not true in the least. That all applies to solenoids, but not motors.
Becasue motors essentially generate while they are spinning, they take very little current to spin at top speed. Technically, it only takes an applied voltage to keep a motor spinning, but that does not take into account mechanical resistance. A motor draws the most current when stalled, and the least when spinning freely.


oh yeah, your number 1 and 2 just mean resistance, which is the only thing regulating how much current is drawn.

[xen_100]

how thick the wire is should not matter either. a thicker wire will handle more current than thinner wire, but thicker wire has a lower ohm/ft rating. granted it will take more room to get the same ohm rating with thicker wire. (because you will need so much of it, the motor will get very large very fast compared to small wire) but it will also have ALOT more torque and HP compared to a smaller motor (this is ofcourse common sense, bigger does = more power when it comes to electric motors. same voltage too, cause a 440v three phase will have alot more power for its size than a 120v single phase.)

sniper is exactly right on the stalled vs free running current on DC motors. this is why alot motors burn up. they get stalled too long and burn out. if a motor is designed to handle 5v at 1 amp of current. that is ussualy free running. under a load it may not be able to handle 5v. under a stalled condition, it may pull 2 or 3 amps, not good!

but AC motors are a different story. if you have a serial AC motor (exciter windings in series with stator windings) you HAVE to have a load on the motor at all times. this has to do with how the exciter windings work. the faster the motor goes the less current it takes to run, so the exciter windings induce more magnetic field, which makes the motor run faster, which makes the exciter put out more, whci makes it go faster, etc etc. at some point the motor goes so fast it will LITERALLY explode. it is a good design for a constant speed motor (self governing at a good range of voltage), but bad if your load ever gets disconnected.

parellel exciter winding solve this, but do not have the self-governing effect.........

just thought I would expand

[datapimp69]

im not sure of this but i would thik thqat most of tyhe work that the noid is doing is pulling the sear from the bolt.

not pushing the on/off?

if this is true then the ule trigger would not change the batt life. or make agd able to put in a smaller noid.

well we all knwo that a smaller noid will work. but tom wants to know it is going to work everytime. hense the big noid and big batt.

just a thought

[sniper1rfa]

most of the work involves pushing the on/off. That is why the ULE trigger is a change in the on/off...

It has to, or else there would be no reason why it wouldnt work with single o-ring valves.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by xen_100
how thick the wire is should not matter either. a thicker wire will handle more current than thinner wire, but thicker wire has a lower ohm/ft rating. granted it will take more room to get the same ohm rating with thicker wire. (because you will need so much of it, the motor will get very large very fast compared to small wire) but it will also have ALOT more torque and HP compared to a smaller motor (this is ofcourse common sense, bigger does = more power when it comes to electric motors. same voltage too, cause a 440v three phase will have alot more power for its size than a 120v single phase.)

sniper is exactly right on the stalled vs free running current on DC motors. this is why alot motors burn up. they get stalled too long and burn out. if a motor is designed to handle 5v at 1 amp of current. that is ussualy free running. under a load it may not be able to handle 5v. under a stalled condition, it may pull 2 or 3 amps, not good!

but AC motors are a different story. if you have a serial AC motor (exciter windings in series with stator windings) you HAVE to have a load on the motor at all times. this has to do with how the exciter windings work. the faster the motor goes the less current it takes to run, so the exciter windings induce more magnetic field, which makes the motor run faster, which makes the exciter put out more, whci makes it go faster, etc etc. at some point the motor goes so fast it will LITERALLY explode. it is a good design for a constant speed motor (self governing at a good range of voltage), but bad if your load ever gets disconnected.

parellel exciter winding solve this, but do not have the self-governing effect.........

just thought I would expand

Thinner wire gives you more windings. For example. You could have a fat wire wound once and it would do nothing or a thin wire wound 100 X. Teh thiner wire wound 100X will create more magnetic field than the fat wire round once. How many motors you see with one wire wound?

[xen_100]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI


Thinner wire gives you more windings. For example. You could have a fat wire wound once and it would do nothing or a thin wire wound 100 X. Teh thiner wire wound 100X will create more magnetic field than the fat wire round once. How many motors you see with one wire wound?

that was exactly my point......larger wire would take ALOT more room to do just as many windings as small gauge wire would. but it would create a larger magnetic field (more current, more field) and it would be capable of ALOT more current.(larger wire, more heat before it melts) besides I dont know many people that would use wire so large it would only go around the stator once. you need either smaller wire, or a larger stator....lol