E-Mag Trigger "Illegal setup and I couldnt fix it"

[Star_Base_CGI]

Thanks cphillip.

I got a picture of a reed switch and turned it sideways. SO people would get an idea of the switch and the problem.

Like I said I dont have a mag but you said a good place to start is to make sure the switch is centered so that the trigger magnet is directly in line with the switch.

Ill take your word for it. SInce I dont have one here to work on.

When the magnet gets close to that wire. The wire bends and makes contact with the wire below it. If the EMF is not strong engough the wire will bounce.

And that is the HES that cphillip is talking about.

[cphilip]

Well its similar...

but yes the HES has to sense enough magnet to respond and trigger it to send a impulse.

Now imagine if its doing that and the trigger is dead center but if you could push it off to the side (which you can cause the trigger is not exactly tight) and push it off just enough for that magnetizm to be enough that the HES doesn't see it...but then let off on the sideways push a little and the trigger returns closer to the center. Allowing the HES to then sense it again. And trigger it to fire. Then this would be a second shot occuring all while the trigger was heald back and not returned forward. And so that would result in a second fire with only one "Tournament legal" trigger pull. That is one full pull back and one full return forward. So it would be disallowed because of that. And that would be an example of a malfunction because it SHOULD be enough magnetizm affecting the HES all the time even when pulled all the way over to each side (the slop of the trigger). It could be the adjustment (more often than not), it could be the magnet is too weak, it could be the HES is to light and wants too much input to see the magnet. It should be adjusted just to the point where that is reliably so no matter what side you pull it too. So in that example the Magnet is too far away by just a bit to allow it to break contact with the HES in the full back position when pulled over to one side. You do NOT want that to happen. And in most cases it can be adjusted out.


But now lets look at it the other way. If the magnet is too close all the time...so that the trigger is returned all the way forward and the HES still sees it... enough not to reset...then a "no shot" will occur on the next pull. So that would be too close ALL the time. And there is a point in a normaly functioning trigger magnet and HES where both of those things will not occur. Or it needs to be fixed.

There is a "zone" if magnetic closeness that can vary from magnet to magnet and HES to HES. And that has to be adjusted out. If that Zone is too narrow or even non existent (rare but...) then one or the other needs to be changed or shimmed or something like that.

Hard to explain but I am doing my best.

[sniper1rfa]

CGI, just to clear you up on how a HES works...

there is nothing mechanical, it is a solid state device. It is, essentially, a transistor.

At rest, current cannot pass through a transistor. It is a semi-conductor (does not conduct well at all, not enough to do anything). When a magnet is brought near the HES, the polarity of the semiconducting material is flipped, turning it into a conductor.

Nothing actually moves, it just changes state. This happens at a VERY specifc gauss (distance the magnet is from the HES, in this case). In fact, there is no grey area. One second the magnet is too far away, the next the magnet is close enough and the HES is switched. Nothing bounces.

This is why it is sensitive to having the magnet too far away. The slop in the trigger is enough to move the magnet back and forth over that "line" of sensitivity.

It is a relatively simple fix. You merely need to bring the magnet a touch closer to the HES.

I hope i made sense...

[nuclear zombie]

A reed switch and a hall sensor are way two different things . A hall sensor is solid state and actually outputs a signal .

Read this it may make more sense ...

http://www.micronas.com/products/overview/sensors/index.php

or what sniper1rfa said ....

[cphilip]

Yes! This is the case. But for purposes of the discussion the "action" can be imagined. Similar in some ways but more abrupt on the HES. Thats good stuff you two. Thanks.

[E==Mag MAN]

Hmmm lots of stuff to absorb. Not really sure whats going to happen but thx.

[AGD]

Emagman,

What was your rate of fire set to? We had a gun in tech class today that did the same thing when set to 24 bps but stopped at 14 bps. The noise from the HES was setting it off at higher ROF.

AGD

[cockermatt]

Tom, you forgot to tell them you used my Trauma trix for the first game after yours was claimed "illegal". :) Man was my gun messy after that, and still is.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by AGD
Emagman,

What was your rate of fire set to? We had a gun in tech class today that did the same thing when set to 24 bps but stopped at 14 bps. The noise from the HES was setting it off at higher ROF.

AGD

Thats a good point Tom because the switch whatever thing is going to resonate at a certain frequencey. From what you said somewhere around 15 BPS.

Perhaps this could be fixed in the firmware. SInce you can update the firmware. If you know that resonance occurs at 15-18 BPS you can lock that frequencey range out because you know that a Resonance Click is going to occur at exactly a certain point in time.

It would be interesting to know if that phenomonon would occur exactly the same point in time every time. I bet it would due to ths size of the switch.

If you divide 1 by 15 Balls per second you get .066666666666666666666666. The emag is possessed by satan. I have proof!

[AGD]

I dont know what BPS setting it actually stopped at I just set it to 14 and the problem evaporated. Most software only goes to 20 bps so thats why the problem is rare. I would bet that 20 is ok too.


AGD

[JT2002]

toms gun, illegal? how did that happen ?

[cphilip]

Well noise at high rate of fire setting is sure interesting but I gotta keep assuming since he said Emag he wouldn't have over a 16 BPS settings. But I could be wrong.

[animal]

If I remember correctly you can still adjust the rate of fire down when the jumper is pulled, which would theoretically filter out any extra "pulls". So couldn't you set your emag to say 6bps for judges purposes and then bump it up as soon as you start? Seems to me it'd be a lot harder to get a bounce with a low bps. Is there a rule to bumping up the bps in manual mode after chrono?

Do we need windows 95 filter keys for the emag?

[lamby]

I would like to give some constructive advice to add the the HES debate.

I am not sure what the original poster has for trigger travel after the fireing point, but I noticed that if the trigger stop is adjusted too close to the fireing point it will cause a quasi runaway mode also (purely electronic, and not even with it aired up) There is also ALOT of side to side trigger play that is a bear to compensate for with the stock trigger. So there is a possibility that one type of trigger pull will be fine, but a side pressure type pull will have a totally different effect. This is in addition to the possibilty of the magnet being a touch too close to the hall sensor. There is no way to adjust the emag like the IR3 or eblade cockers, there is more travel required to activated and reset the HES.

I have (as cphilip pointed out) an aftermarket trigger, this opens up a whole new can of worms but the concept is the same, and trigger adjustment is easier and finer with a TL63 compared to the stock trigger.

cphilip,

I never said I had the same problem with my marker. I had a reactivity problem, my trigger was fine at Chicago in emode (till it rained). I was making a snyde remark saying that if you try to sweetspot an HES, and are good enough to hold a trigger that steady, (I have less than 1/2 oz trigger pull so it would be really hard to do)it can be done, and I prob would have failed that too.

HES switches are far from perfect for this application. A better switch design is an optical interupt circuit with adjustable debounce timing. I think you have to agree with me on that.

I would love to have free reign to control my microcontroller, but there are things I cant do without a flatpack programmer. I developed some paintball marker software that had a perfect cheat code that would prevent my problems, and those of many others, and still had the the AGD "look" if you look at the led screen. It is a de-gererative delay timer, that drops delay time on the hold circuit which will eliminated almost all delay (34ms or 30bps) after 10 shots . There is also a timer that counts for trigger pulls. if no pull is detected in 5 seconds, the board resets to delay of 200ms (5bps). This will eliminate bounce for chrono, and will allow electronic trigger bounce or RT reactivity to increase rate of fire when playing. I wrote this code in basic and ran a test on a emulator, but never wrote it to a chip, or connected it to a marker (it might not have even worked) I lost it in the great crash of '03, and I dont have a real want to cheat anyway. Just wanted to see what it would do.

I do know my marker, and love most of it. I am just unhappy about this right now and it is obvious in my posts. I want to let people know that if they want to get an AGD marker, they know all the facts first.

I said some things incorrectly yesterday which was caused by excessive consumption of fermented beverages. Not an excuse, but the reason non the less.

[cphilip]

Sure! I got ya Lamby. It no biggie. Good discussion here though. There are fixes here but seems like your on the right track. Does need some lookin into for sure.