04 Timmy

[Ripper machinist]

Btw I was there for intitial testing of alot of the new features. And all testing was done one by one to see if the changes added any benefit to the overall workings of the gun. Cause fact is, not all changes you think that are logical in a paintball gun, ever actualy do anything. So all changes that where finalized helped in some shape or form from speed of the gun, To efficiency of the air and or easability of the flow of gas to the ball and pneaumatics.

Changes also made, the average person will never actualy see or feel. Alot of changes that where made dramaticaly helped drop off at high rates of fire. Yea alot of guns hit 20 bps but not all are having the 1st and 20th ball repeating the fps within a margin of 5. Alot of guns which people dont talk about. cycle very fast, but dont have the underlying stuff to keep the air fed and regulated at the high cycling rates.



Jim

[manike]

I sound like Jim Drew do I? SlartyBartFast, You are so far off base it's funny.

What of my statements isn't basic physics and engineering that you can't easily prove yourself?

You can take a rule and proove the grip frame is moved up.

You can take a rule and prove the bolt is shorter.

You can take a rule and prove the feed port is moved back.

You can take a mic and measure the time between shot cycles to see it is faster.

You can see the new LCD in the grip and the new buttons on the back of the frame.

You can see the new valve and shape it has to improve flow. You can maybe infer the results because of the lower dwell the gun can run at.

You can measure the internal volume of the reg body and see that it is larger.

You can see that the transfer port has better chance of lining up perfectly with the new design.

You can see the new ram and ram cap design that get rid of the old bumpers for a new improved design.

You can see other clever stuff in the ram cap that I can't divulge the importance of just yet.

You can weigh the gun and see how much lighter it is.

You can weight the hammer and bolt and see that it is lighter. If you have any basic physics knowledge you should be able to work out that this can be accelerated faster when the same force is applied. Want to tell me why that wouldn't mean it cycles faster?

All of the above is in production guns and if you have any basic ability you can see the changes, and why they are important for performance.

The ONLY thing you can't see on a production gun is my diagnostic software. But you can see that any time you find me at an event. I can even put my board into your gun and show you the differences that all the changes in my gun make. And anyway you don't need my diagnostic software to actually proof that the gun cycles faster. You can measure it with a mic. Put a standard loader on my gun and on another gun and look at the times between shots. If the same loader is standard on both guns you should be able to see the difference in shot time caused by the difference in cycle times between the two guns.

You see the difference between my claims and Jim's is that YOU YOURSELF can prove my claims. Or I can prove them in person. What I can't always do is make my information freely available on the internet because it is not my place in the company I work for to do that.

[manike]

Originally posted by Load SM5
Trust me, I shot his Empire at SC and that thing was the fastest gun I've ever shot.

Lot's of people have been saying that. Just wait till Bob finally get's me my 2k4 so I can deck that out!

Originally posted by Load SM5
By the way my Timmy sings Manike. Thanks for the look over, advice and low rise. Well worth the long trip to Atlanta. That and watching airport security almost tackle you.

Glad to hear it!

[wyn1370]

one of these days you're gonna have to share those wonderfull little secrets, that you told load, with me

[Load SM5]

Originally posted by manike


Lot's of people have been saying that. Just wait till Bob finally get's me my 2k4 so I can deck that out!

Have I mentoned that I hate you, today?

E-mail me Wyn I'll fill you in tonight when I get home and can take some pics.

[wyn1370]

pics would be fantastic.

[manike]

Originally posted by wyn1370
one of these days you're gonna have to share those wonderfull little secrets, that you told load, with me

Much of my 'secrets' are actually being implemented in new timmy's anyway, most of it completely independently of me. Jim (rippermachinist) did a great job in helping the development of the new 2k4.

Oh and I forgot to mention above that the gun has a new board in it also and that this can be seen by opening up the grip frame and looking inside.

[Dayspring]

Can you email those to me as well?

Originally posted by Load SM5


Have I mentoned that I hate you, today?

E-mail me Wyn I'll fill you in tonight when I get home and can take some pics.

And yes. This gun (Empire Timmy) is WAY fast. Like UNGODLY fast.

[Ripper machinist]

Imo, the new board setup is a god send. So many less wires to deal with. Since everything that could was implemented into the board. Allowing much easier breakdown of the grip and reassembly.

Jim

[Dayspring]

Will the board be available as an aftermarket upgrade and can it fit into Classic/GZ/2k2 etc?

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by manike
I sound like Jim Drew do I? SlartyBartFast, You are so far off base it's funny.

What of my statements isn't basic physics and engineering that you can't easily prove yourself?

Hmmm. Jim Drew often said the same thing. But of course when you started questioning him you were quickly told it was beyond your understanding.

You can take a rule and proove the grip frame is moved up.
You can take a rule and prove the bolt is shorter.
You can take a rule and prove the feed port is moved back.
You can take a mic and measure the time between shot cycles to see it is faster.
You can see the new LCD in the grip and the new buttons on the back of the frame.

You can see the new valve and shape it has to improve flow. You can maybe infer the results because of the lower dwell the gun can run at.
You can measure the internal volume of the reg body and see that it is larger.
You can see that the transfer port has better chance of lining up perfectly with the new design.
You can see the new ram and ram cap design that get rid of the old bumpers for a new improved design.
You can see other clever stuff in the ram cap that I can't divulge the importance of just yet.

Sure it all seems to make sense and undoubtably has some effect. But what percentage gain are we talking about here?

You can weigh the gun and see how much lighter it is.

You can weight the hammer and bolt and see that it is lighter. If you have any basic physics knowledge you should be able to work out that this can be accelerated faster when the same force is applied. Want to tell me why that wouldn't mean it cycles faster?

(plus the fourth point above)

[1stdeadeye]

I don't know if the new Timmy is faster then the old one. What I can say is that it was far easier to shoot Simon's Empire Intimidator faster then a 2k2 Timmy!

So maybe they do the same BPS, but it is easier to reach the max with the new timmy!

[manike]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Ok it cycles faster. By how much. A millisecond or so?

It will depend very much on your gun and it's set up/tolerances etc. But I can tell you on my gun just by changing out parts and some modifications we are looking to bring out... my cycle time went from 54ms (slow solenoid gun) to 34ms (same solenoid)... so it made a HUGE % difference. It would be hard for me to prove this though as I would need to shoot it and show you, then swap all the parts back and shoot it and show you. You can trust and believe me based on my past conduct or not, that's your perogative. I know it transformed my particular gun, but then all guns come with different tolerances etc.

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

You won't see me worrying about a perfectly honed barrel. I shoot a .690 almost always.

You will see me shaving ms off on cycle times where I can though. If I can get 2-3ms of per cycle, when you start getting up to very high rof that's almost another full cycle... (I clean my ram tube regularly just because it has such a slowing effect when it gets dirty! it's amazing what just cleaning the ram tube can do!)

I agree paintballs definitely aren't that precise. And they are a very important factor. SHOOT QUALITY PAINT. (sales mode on i.e. Draxxus LMAO!)

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

It's not about outshooting a halo. I don't because I have eyes on all my guns. But if I can make the gun cycle quicker in between loading then the rof will go up even if the loader doesn't feed any quicker. At the moment when I make faster guns my rof goes up. When I make faster loaders my rof goes up. Both are important to get the ultimate results. That result may not be a hugefactor to some people over what they are achieving at the moment, but to others it may be, and it is a competitive advantage.

If I was shooting 15bps and now I am doing 18bps that's a 20% increase...

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by manike


I KNOW you are wrong. VERY WRONG!

The 2k4 is faster. It has a lighter hammer and bolt so it can cycle quicker. It also has some changes internally so it can cycle quicker, but I can't divulge some of that stuff yet, but it is stuff that I helped develop.

People that have shot my Empire gun with only some of the changes believe it to be faster than other timmies they have shot so, please tell me how YOU, (and considering I doubt you have shot a 2k4 or Empire) know that you won't be able to tell the difference? I know it is faster because I have a special set of electronics that can measure the cycle time of the gun and so I can see changes caused by different parts.

I've also spoken to many top players in this sport and they all feel it to be a faster, smaller, lighter and BETTER package.

The overall design is also VERY different in many subtle ways. The grip is moved forward and up, making a more compact gun in height and length when held. The feed neck is moved back to get the weight balance back and make the gun shorter.

It has a new valve set up and changed ports/flow characteristics.

It has a new bolt.

The front reg chamber is higher volume with better flow characteristics to prevent any degridation in performance at high rates of fire, but in a smaller package than previous intimidators.

It has a new ram and ram cap set up so that you don't get performance losses due to worn ram bumpers.

It has a new board with LCD in the grip and tactile buttons in the back of the grip.

Right now I'm trying to think of what hasn't been changed...

Now when it comes to the X-mag I can appreciate it looks like there is more difference between it and the E-mag in comparison but having been involved in both projects I would have to say there is more changed in the timmy in this instance than there was with the X-mag. The X-mag got a new body and an eye system, but that was essentially it. The valve and grip frame and operational parts didn't change (level 10 wasn't available until later). It also (at a later date) got a new battery milling and software, but not when the X-mag first came out (other than the software to be able to use the eye).

But its essentially just another timmy...whoopdy do. Again, I love timmys, but they have more versions of the timmy than I have dollars (literally)

My point with the speed issue is this. Theoretically its faster, but really, considering the others have cycled beyond 36 cps, who the hell cares? YOU CANT pull the trigger faster than that, and the fasted I have seen in person with WAS is 24, which is about as fast as the fastest hopper can keep up. Any talk of it being faster is just stupid, IMO.

You can throw technical jargon about why its faster at me all day long, but essentially, its just another timmy and you know it. You even said yourself, that this timmy, like almost all others, the changes are subtle. Again, I never initially meant to bash it, but I just didnt see what was with all the oo's and ahh's.

EDIT: I just took the time to read that there post of yours, and here is what I think of it. You sound JUST like somebody from some silly company that throws all these specs around and makes it SEEM like its totally awesome, and that a change means a new feature, when in fact its just that, not a special feature, its a change. You sound like you came straight from Smart Parts. *Clap clap.*

EDIT again: Tactile buttons? Lol...thats hilarious. I understand that according to the actual def. of tactile, it makes sense, but that only fuels the point that I made in my previous EDIT.

AGG! EDIT AGAIN: Xmags also got an interchangeable breach system, cocker threads, blah blah blah, things that come with something like that...things you made a point to add in your description, you know, the MINOR things that could be added or removed, just to fine tune how you want people to perceive this item.

Im sorry, but unless they change something drastic (not where the feedneck is, or porting) its just another timmy with a few enhancements, and of course a + $300 or price tag.

[manike]

Of course it's another timmy, that's why, dun dun duh... it's called a timmy! If it was a whole new gun it would be called something else...

But to say there is no difference between this and previous timmys and that it won't perform any better of differently is just plain stupid. Especially when you don't know what you are talking about, or what changes have been made.

I'm giving you genuine specs and changes. I'm not throwing them around. I'm not making exagerated claims about what they mean to the gun itself. If you can't see that then I can't help you by providing information for you.

You were obviously making incorrect statements about things you didn't know. I am just setting the record straight. It doesn't matter to me if you care less or not about being correct, I just don't want wrong information out there from people that don't know what has been done to the new gun or why.

One thing I should point out about the difference in cycle time with my gun is that I had a slower solenoid in the gun. I don't expect to see quite such a change in guns that start out with faster solenoids. Although I didn't change the solenoid, the changes do have greater ms saving effects on slower tolerances solenoids etc. to make them faster.

Previously a fast gun gave a cycle reading of 40-44ms or so (mine was 54ish as mentioned). Now such a fast set up gun is down in the low 30-34ms.

I would have thought moving the feed neck to be a major item (because of how it impacts on other issues such as eye covers etc). As with a new board, new LCD, as with a new regulator set up, as with a new ram design, as with a new grip frame style and location. I'd say minor things are more like milling style or bolt face etc. But what would I know, not as if I was involved with any of that 'minor' work.

p.s. I forgot to mention new low profile eye covers designed to be more integrated and easier to clean around. I guess I'll give you that as a 'minor item'.