Low pressure = Straighter shots?? hype..?

[Miscue]

Originally posted by LittMag


Well... not unless you have something that puts a spin on the ball... like a flatline barrel, z-body for mag, etc.

That'll make a decent difference.

No duh!

[Smoking Nun]

flatter trajectory

I think some of it has to do with kick and stability of firing platform.

I have noticed that mags have a considerable kick (not quite like a PMI III or similar), but still quite a kick. It kind of kicks the marker forward a bit when firing. Probably the whole blow forward action. So, the whole kick of the marker forward, tips the barrel a bit forward and may lead to the impression of the Mags shots arcing. I know that it SEEMS my mag's shots arc a bit when I shoot. They seem to have a top spin. Seem - don't know, seem.

Now, I know that certain barrels, bolts, and barrel to paint matches can put a spin on the ball and induce lift and drop. Z-mag, flatline, Underspin bolt, and maybe certain other barrels with big barrels and loose paint.

It is true that things such as kick, paint to barrel match, barrels, etc. can all combine to place spin on the ball or to give shots a changed trajectory (or seemingly changed trajectory).

It has nothing to do with pressure behind the ball. However other variables, why yes, most certainly.

I know my Shocker and Cocker seems to have flatter trajectories. They shoot lower pressure, so that must be it, right. No. I still stand by my theory - without some sort of special barrel or bolt or paint match - it is all about the marker kick and cycle - it tips the barrel up or down at the point of firing, the user compensates, and the ball doesn't go quite where aimed. So, it looks like it has spin or flies flatter.

Shocker has a sort of slow vertical rise
Mag has a different sort of kick
Cocker has very little kick
They all affect where the paintball goes - the kick that is.

Nun

[GT]

Re: flatter trajectory

Originally posted by Smoking Nun

Shocker has a sort of slow vertical rise
Mag has a different sort of kick
Cocker has very little kick

ever take those guns apart? I am willing to bet that the mag, lvlx has the lightest bolt out of all 3. I think the shocker feels smoother because the gun weighs so much more....

[Smoking Nun]

More on recoil

It may not be just the weight of the bolt, but maybe the total force/inertia exerted by the cycling mechanism.

I have taken all 3 apart down to the very last part.

I just think they all rock, kick, and move differently. I think it moves the barrel and affects shot trajectory. Also, if a barrel is pitching down or up as a ball is leaving the barrel, it is possible for that barrel to impart a spin on a ball, especially if the ball is loose at all in the bore.

We know physics can't be broken - well usually, anyway. However, I think there are many other parts to the problem that affect trajectory, range, and accuracy that we really aren't looking at. The solutions might not be simple, but the answers as to why it is happening is probably right under out noses.

Saw a show the other day about 17th century naval warfare. They were field testing the English Wyvern naval cannon. supposed to have a flat trajectory out to a certain range and be accurate to this range, etc. Used doppler radar, sensors, cameras, etc. They found it had the originally reported flat trajectory. So, they wanted to test penetration power adn lined up a target at point blank range. The first 5 shots cleared teh top of the 20 foot high target at like 40 yards. They kept lowering the barrel, right? They finally figured out the shots were ricocheting off the ground and bouncing over the target. The reason, the cannon wasn't stable enough and the recoil was dropping the barrel as the shot left the gun. All their sensors and cameras couldn't pick this up. They finally got their hit through stabilization and by aiming a bit high.

Anyway - I think so much of this whole thing just has to do with kick and firing motions. I am absolutely sure it has some affect. Why do people think pumps are so accurate.

Nun

[Nomad]

Re: Re: flatter trajectory

Originally posted by gtrsi


ever take those guns apart? I am willing to bet that the mag, lvlx has the lightest bolt out of all 3. I think the shocker feels smoother because the gun weighs so much more....

That and that fact that the majority of a mags weight is concentrated behind the bolt, in the valve which is behind the grip frame.

With more conventional designs like a shocker or a matrix you have a lot more of the guns weight positioned in front of the grip frame.

[personman]

Heh. Have you ever fired an LX mag? There is no kick. There may be a very smallll miniscule amount of kick that only a 5 year old could feel, but its not enough to affect your shot, or the way you view the ball or whatever. Also if you have ever shot an emag at any decently fast speed, you would know that the kick on a mag forces the gun to ride up, not down like you are trying to explain.

[Smoking Nun]

Personman,

I have an LX mag. It has kick and not just a little, in my opnion.

I'm not sure if the barrel rises up or down with the way the mag rocks with the kick. I'm sure someone could do tests to prove the theory. I'm not mag bashing. I have one and it is one of my most reliable guns. I believe something about the kick and firing motion of the mag leads to something that arcs shots or leads to a perception that shots are arced. It is just a belief and theory based upon my observations. There are a lot better ways to figure this out beyond my obversation.

It would take a mound of equipment, cameras, radar, etc. to really find out what happens with trajectory and the different types of markers.

About the bolts on the 3 guns. Shocker is lightest, by far, especially the delrin version. LX bolt and a delrin cocker bolt are probably close. However, it is not just the bolt. There is all the weight and force of the entire firing mechanism. (bolts, hammers, ram shafts, backblocks, spring tension, air pressure for the mag, etc.). If anybody can disprove the theory, great. All I have is a gut feeling on this one and personal experiences with a bunch of different guns.

So, to answer the guy's original question, once again, it is not the pressure. But, other factors are involved.

Nun

[cledford]

Re: More on recoil

Originally posted by Smoking Nun
It may not be just the weight of the bolt, but maybe the total force/inertia exerted by the cycling mechanism.

Do you know how dumb this statement is? Force(to move the reciprocating mass)/inertia(of bolt at rest) is DIRECTLY related to the WEIGHT of the mass to be moved. Geez, they teach that in 6th grade science.

I don't know how much the reciprocating mass in the shocker weighs (guess I could tear mine apart and weigh it all), but is damn sure more than the LX bolt. The cocker, Impy, Timmy, Viking, Excal, and Angel all have more to MANY times more the reciprocating the mass of the LX bolt. (Don't just weigh the ultralight delrin bolt, but the ram, hammer, bolt pins, back blocks, and figure additional energy required to knock open the hammer valve) Your statement has no merit. You are not even making educated guesses, but just "making up" explanations to validate your feelings.

Sorry to pick on you, it's nothing personal. It's just that these myths have been propagated long enough. Junk science has never cut it here on AO and I'm going out of my way to point it out this time. There may be many reasons why one marker *appears* to shoot a different trajectory then another, but using inaccurate reasoning to describe why is a huge problem.

FWIW, my personal guess as to an explanation for all of this is that it is simple an optical illusion. Shockers are VERY tall markers and it is quite easy to sight down the side and even with a lot of vertical movement still have a similar looking sight picture/frame of reference. Mags are the most compact marker there is, any vertical movement is going to be noticed more. Everything else falls somewhere in-between.

-Calvin

[zaqwert6]

Originally posted by Smoking Nun


It would take a mound of equipment, cameras, radar, etc. to really find out what happens with trajectory and the different types of markers.

If anybody can disprove the theory, great.

Sigh.....

I'm amazed at how preconceived notions and pure folklore can continue to be so prevalent in this sport.

Here are some basic facts,

The gun can have no effect on the flight of the paintball after it leaves the barrel.

The Paintball is not in the barrel long enough to allow the minute amount of movement that is made primarily after the shot,to effect spin on the ball.This is not jai alai,look at the amount of spin needed in a Flatline or Z body just to have a noticable effect on tragectory.

"If" a forward kick were happening as your "guts" were telling you,and enough so to impart spin on the ball,it would be back spin not top spin and only enhance range.

"If" your properly matching your barrel with the size of your paint,you would negate any possible spin you "think" may be imparted during the miilisecond that the ball is in the barrel.There's one easy test for you to try.

Here's a simple test you can try.Simply set up a target(at least a decent distance),pull a string across the field at around the midway between you and the target.Chrono and fire 2 test guns from the same height off the ground,under the string and see if you can hit the target.Any difference in range will become easily apparent.You can also set up a ring such as a car tire at a distance from you,shoot through the tire aiming at a target in the distance and see the same results.

Here's one last fact.EVERY gun has kick.I know people say this one and that one doesn't,but EVERY gun has kick.If there was no moving parts in a paintgun,the force of a ball leaving the barrel at 300fps will create a kick.The biggest difference I see between guns is when and how much the added movement of the cycling parts contribute to that kick.This can be effected by many factors besides bolt weight.

What that kick does do is effect the overall point of aim.I think one reason Cockers developed their rep for long range is simply that there is no cycling of any moving parts during the first shot,that coupled with the fact that much of the weight of the gun hangs out in front,gives a very predictable point of aim.Unlike most other guns that cycle with different timing in relation to firing of the ball which has an overall effect on thier point of aim.That's why when you grab someone elses gun after shooting yours,your "learned" point of aim gives you a false assumption on where to shoot and possibly an impression that one shoots farther than another.

Anyway,that's my gut feeling.

Jay.

[cledford]

Originally posted by zaqwert6
Cockers developed their rep for long range is simply that there is no cycling of any moving parts during the first shot,that coupled with the fact that much of the weight of the gun hangs out in front,gives a very predictable point of aim.

Great suggestion. kick, aka recoil, is mitigated on firearms by moving mass as far forward as possible. It is not that the recoil affects any shot, but increases recovery time to require sight picture in between successive shots. On my "bowling pin" gun which requires very rapid shooting I minimize the time required to require sight picture by making the front of the pistol heavier with a tungsten guide rod and guide rod plug. This makes a noticeable difference. The cocker does have a lot of weight out front in a similar fashion. Think of the difference between it (cocker) and mag from the trigger guard forward. The mag has some rail and body, a grip, along with barrel and that is it. The cocker has a hunk of aluminum in the ASA adapter, another in the front block, the rest of the body, the reg, the lpr, the 3 way (or noid) the ram, front block screw, the barrel, the valve, and part of the cocking rod. Furthermore, you have the hammer slamming forward with it's own inertia, while adding not only adding it's it's weight forward on the gun - it is also in effect acting as a counter balancer to the recoil from the ball be fired. (Although the mag bolt does this as well.)

Cool point.

-Calvin

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by cledford


Cool point.

-Calvin

Oop. Sorry,that was me.Guess my brother was on the computer again.

But thanks. I shoot as well and have often wondered why no one has made a barrel with all the ports on the top to act as a muzzle break.I'd be curious to see if there's enough gas to have any effect on barrel position during and after the shot.

Might be time to break out the drill press.

Jay.

[GT]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


Jay.

jay,
I think that you will find after the ball has left the control bore air will escape through the easiets route, i.e. the first whole it comes to.

Also keep in mind that the pressure beind the ball dramatically decreases as it moves down the barrel. I would even go so far to say that once the ball is moving the air left in the barrel has little to do with the balls flight path

[RRfireblade]

Yeah that could be so.Perhaps a short barrel with a tight grouping of ports.Either way just a crazy idea.

[845]

When you shoot intimidators and matrices and then shoot an X-mag there is definately kick.

[cledford]

Originally posted by 845
When you shoot intimidators and matrices and then shoot an X-mag there is definately kick.

Maybe in Bizzaro world...

-Calvin