SPYDER = bad/poor design?

[chizle97]

well i for one absolutley loved my spyder. all i had to do was oil it and take good care of it. Those were good times. Money is extreamly tight with me so i never got an electro spyder. but i still owned numerus peeps at my field with higher end markers every weekend. I could also fire faster with that than i could with my mag not broken in. It was reall funnt to hear the people i bunkered talk behind my back "The noob with the F___in spyder bunkered me" this coming from a 25 year old guy whos been playin for years. lol

[bunkermaster10]

Well the spyder is designed to be cheap not expensive. The plaistic trgger frame, velocity set by a cheap spring, etc. Not a bad design obviouslly for a cheap marker.

[Jack & Coke]

Re: spyder

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY


So there's my question for you J+C.... outside of poor manufacturing and the fact it's 95% noobs packing spyders.... what do YOU see as the weaknesses of an open bolt blowback and how do they stack up (no pun intended, dual tube stack, get it?) to other designs? How useful is using nitro with them?

"weaknesses" as in performance (i.e. shooting a paintball and hitting your target)... very few.

IMO, as far as performance is concerned, the only thing I would be worried about wound be chopping a misfed ball. Other than chopping a ball with the bolt, I think the spyder is fine, and unjustly receives too much bad folk gossip.

I think PERFORMANCE = fine.

I think COMFORT (i.e. smooth operation, kick, balance, etc) and AESTHETICS = others are better.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

consistency of a spring-loaded hammer/ram

Hi folks, especially Jack&Coke and athomas, I just opened a thread in Deep Blue all about the physics behind the consistency issue in using the spring-loaded hammer and sear firing method utilized in spyders. It compares all the different ways that today's markers use to open a poppet valve and discusses the benefits and weaknesses of each method. It's basically a way of discussing whether the open bolt blowback method of operation is weaker or if it has only appeared that way due to crappy production of the product. Anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to, but it is entirely focused on the physics and engineering level of the open bolt blowback and not a general discussion on spyders. Please save that stuff for another thread such as this one.

Here's the link:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122392

[GT]

I just like to eat at the very soul of timmy owners when I post the spyder comment on a timmy thread ...

lets be completely honest,
any gun with a nice reg, good air source, excellent paint and p-b match will shoot the same as all the crap out there....

whether you shoot an E-timmy.... err spyder is your choice.

[TheTramp]

I would go as far as to say that the Spyder design is almost the fundamental paintball gun design (when it comes to semi auto operation)

Almost every electro gun is fundamentally based on the design. Using air solenoids, rams, and electronic dwells instead of springs and strikers simply takes the fundamental design and utilizes it to its maximum.

So do I think the Spyder design is good? OF COURSE!

The low tolerances of the cheap stack-tube blowbacks should actually prove the quality of the design. Can you imagine how well a Mag or Intimidator would work with this poor workmanship yet the Spyders work well (OK, pretty good)

There is ONE main reason that Intimidators (for example) are more expensive than electro Spyders IMHO. It's all about quality control and workmanship. Making sure everything is perfect is much more expensive than slamming together 1000 markers per day for the kids. (of course you do have to add $400-$800 for the name and milling )

[striker]

lets be completely honest,
any gun with a nice reg, good air source, excellent paint and p-b match will shoot the same as all the crap out there....

Agreed, but only for the first shot. The disadvantages of any open-bolt blowback is unnecessarily high "kick" and even with a good reg and tank, poor consistency compared to a timmy/viking. Plus, by the time you add such a regulator and tank, you're in the $500 range. That's enough for a good used gun.

Originally, the question was weather the syper was a bad design. Not necessarily, and definately not for the price. However, other designs are far better. You did mention that early timmies and vikings used the spyder-type body, but what does the body have to do with the operation? And it is the operation that will make or break a gun. Spyder=good low end gun. In the same rank as Tippmann's guns.

[deathstalker]

Ah, at least we can have a mature discussion about it (I hope).

One of my favorite comments is, "No matter how much money you put into a Spyder, it's still a Spyder." No poop, Sherlock. Did you think of that on your own or did the first-grader next door help you?

Many of the comments are bred from pure ignorance, arrogance, and elitism. Others are the result of one person having a problem and, thanks to the intarweb, the story gets passed around and people accept it as fact/universal. It's also something you'll find for just about every manufacturer in the industry. "'Cockers are high maintenance and always break down." "'Mags chop." "BE sucks." Too many people make claims without knowing a single thing about the topic at hand.

I think part of the problem is people set their expectations too high. If you take everything into account, especially price, you're getting an incredible bargain buying a blowback.

[melster]

Wait...isn't the spyder just derived from the VM-68 (PMI-III) design? So wouldn't that make all Spyders descendants of the VM-68, and therefore, we should talk about the VM-68 being a good design if it spawned all these clones?

[personman]

My oppinion on why it is such a diss.
Spyders are not bad markers, but they can be purchased for $50. When a high end gun has a similar operation, and costs $1050, you know somethings up.
I honestly dont see how someone could spend 1k on a pnumatic ram, and a grip frame. Really thats all the difference (besides the regulator or whatever)

[RAM3139]

Its good to see a thread about spyders where not one person makes an ignorant comment. Maybe i'll spend some more time on this forum.

Anyway, a couple comments. The two main problems most have with the current blowbacks on the market, other than the tolerences already discussed, is the kick and chopping. These arent really problems inherent in the design, but in what the company wants to make. As the companies target, in general, the more novice crowd, they want something cheap and reliable. Thats why all the current models have heavy hammers and stiff springs. While they give the marker a more "clunky" feel when they are shot, it makes sure changes in pressure, lack of maintenance, worn parts etc.. wont prevent the marker from cycling. It is very possible, and easy, to set up a spyder that will cycle very smooth, will pinch balls, and will have very little blowback up the feedtube. Some individuals now are making high quality parts for spyders that i think are really gonna turn some heads. Parts like ultra light, delrin sleeved hammers, faster boards that rival the WAS board, ACE systems and others. While a setup using these parts takes a bit more effort, and some knowledge, it will run just as nice as any other marker out there.

So basically, no, the spyder design is great. All the problems people have with them arent results of the design, and can be changed to make one sweet marker.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

good

Very good post Ram, valid points, especially the one about how the companies would rather deal with more force in the spring and a heavy hammer, resulting in more kickback, to make up for lousy QC so it still fires every time. So my next question is, what is the most high-end, high-quality marker that utilizes technology almost identical to the Spyder? That rules out Vikings, Impulses, and Timmy's I believe because that all utilize air in both the forward and backward momentum, but other than that what is the most high-end companies have gone with this design?

The spring and hammer thing interests me because the question is: how light can the hammer get, and how little pressure can the spring apply, while still firing up to 20-25bps at 280-300fps consistently, which is pretty much the fastest it would need to go for a tourney player? If it can compete with any other marker and not have a bolt moving with such force it'd slice right through paint or kick like a mule on steroids, it has its definite benefits.

[RAM3139]

Well, as far as taking the design to the max, AKALMP at one point made a spyder body, the VLM, as an attempt to make the "perfect blowback", but this was a while ago.
As far as how light and soft, its really more a question of efficiency. You can use a very very soft mainspring, that wont ever chop, but you have to compensate with dwell and operating pressure, so its a balancing act to get the best setup for your marker. I've been meaning to get one of the super light hammers to do some tests, but havent gotten around to it ( i.e. dont have the money). From what i've found, it greatly reduces the kick, to an electropneumatic feel, and only drops your velocity by about 10fps, so a slight increase in pressure or a change in dwell can compensate without having much effect.
I dont think cycle speed would be too much of a concern, unless the spring and hammer weights were taken to the extreme. Blowbacks are one of the fastest cycling designs around, more so than electropnues, which are limited by the solenoid vavles speed (~25cps from what i hear). I have setup a spyder to fairly reliably pinch balls using a stock hammer and 800psi input, but 230 was about the highest it would shoot. With a better valve or hammer, it could work fine. Plus, you could always go with a nonrigid, spring bolt, like the JAM cocker bolt. COmbined with a good break-beam eye system, chops would be no problem.

[Jack & Coke]

How well do the JAM bolts work?

I think the idea is pretty cool and it looks like an elegant solution to the chopping problem.

Are they for real or do they fall into the over-hyped gimmick category?

[RAM3139]

well, i cant vouch for them personally, since I've never used one. The idea is sound though, basically letting a linked bolt and hammer have different tensions driving them. If the hammer was being driven by a soft mainspring, the boltspring wouldn't have to be too soft to let the whole mechanism pinch the ball.
My only concerns would be 1)would the spring mechanism restrict airflow through the bolt. and 2) would the inertia of the bolt head make it stay in the breech long enough to give feeding problems. I doubt either of these would be too much of a problem. The spring could be placed so as not to affect flow, and if the head was light, made of delrin for example with a semi-hard boltspring, i doubt it would stretch enough to be a factor.