Apache's are shipping!

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by sneakyhacker420
and all about the gravity stuff and warpig's tests - that specifies that an UNORGANIZED jumble of paintballs in a loader cannot drop faster than 13 bps or whatever - in a complete stacked tube of 100 balls - like a long arse 10-round tube, it was TESTED, RE-TESTED, and PROVEN that an ORGANIZED stack of balls can fall in excess of 56 BPS

Where did you get this "proof"? WARPIG says nothing about 56bps.

The only way a tube is going to get 56bps is if it's just emptying itself. Fed one by one, you'll never get better than 11.5bps.

[Mossman]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast



Where did you get this "proof"? WARPIG says nothing about 56bps.

The only way a tube is going to get 56bps is if it's just emptying itself. Fed one by one, you'll never get better than 11.5bps.

slarty what is the fastest you think any hopper (other than the halo or Q loader) can feed?

Just gimme a # and i'll grab a video camera, my eggo and ebladed freeflow and prove you wrong

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Mossman
slarty what is the fastest you think any hopper (other than the halo or Q loader) can feed?

Just gimme a # and i'll grab a video camera, my eggo and ebladed freeflow and prove you wrong

Don't see why I'd have to give you a number. If you can prove it, go ahead. SO far the only vidoe that's been clear shooting paint is the various HALO demonstrations with automatic Automags.

Other than that, the WARPIG numbers are the only tested numbers.

Why is it people get so irritated when you challenge claims and ask for proof?

My manhood doesn't depend on this, and I'll happily admit I'm wrong. IF you can point me to some proof. I have submitted the WARPIG hopper comparison test as a benchmark. No one has challenged the method used or the numbers produced. If you want to, go ahead. But you better be prepared to have provable backing to show how WARPIG is wrong.

WARPIG proves a stacked tube will feed a paintball marker consistently at 11.5 bps. It has been claimed here that the rediculous number of 56 bps can be acheived. Seems people are pretty worked up about their beliefs if a simple request for proof or backing generates such vehemence.

As a side note, I guess the 56 bps is from the completely pointless exercise of allowing the tube to empty. The same tests with HALOs, Q-loaders, and others are also virtually worthless. It proves that the loader can feed smoothly without jamming but nothing more. It does not indicate how fast the loader will feed a marker. The reason is that a marker causes the ball stack to stop and start. Allowing a loader to empty does not require the loader to overcome the inertial of the stopped balls for each shot. This is particularily exacerbated in stacked tubes or the Qloader. The HALO also exhibits this behaviour but not necessarily to the same extent as not all the balls in the hopper are under force, only those in contact with the feed wheel. As all the balls are under constant force (gravity for the tube, a spring for the Q-loader) they are continuously accelerating. The exit speed of the last ball is MUCH greater than the exit speed of the first. In real life use on a marker, the only speed that is important is the speed of the first ball. As, after the first ball is loaded and fired, the next ball will start from rest to load the marker.

[Mossman]

So if i shot 13 balls a second with a marker with an eggo2 on top, that'd be disproving your claim?

[FragTek]

All I know or care to add to this conversation is that when I had my Z boarded Eggy I could rip my lcd trix at 23bps w/o it skipping a ball.

That should be proof enough.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Mossman
So if i shot 13 balls a second with a marker with an eggo2 on top, that'd be disproving your claim?

If you can document it, sure.

But you wouldn't be disproving my claim. You'd be proving yours.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
All I know or care to add to this conversation is that when I had my Z boarded Eggy I could rip my lcd trix at 23bps w/o it skipping a ball.

That should be proof enough.

Sorry, but I have no reason to believe you.

If we were to beleive people's word in paintball, we'd all beleive that spiral porting in barrels caused paintballs to spin. Wouldn't we.

[FragTek]

Wow, some people really are blind to the truth... Everyone raise your hand if you think your egg only feeds 11.5bps.

/me does not raise his hand.

Mossman, shoot that video so we can shut this fool up.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
Wow, some people really are blind to the truth... Everyone raise your hand if you think your egg only feeds 11.5bps.

/me does not raise his hand.

Mossman, shoot that video so we can shut this fool up.

I'm a fool because I don't beleive the hype from a manufacturer or a bunch of paintballers that don't have a clue what BPS they're REALLY shooting?

I remember in similar threads people making the same claims for Revys with WAS boards.

WARPIG proved them wrong. Unless (once again) you can show how the WARPIG testing is flawed or why Bill Mills shouldn't be trusted. The only complaint I have against WARPIG is that they don't test all hoppers the same way. But I bet the hopper manufacturers wouldn't like it if they did.

People STILL claim they're firing 16+ bps with revys. So how?

I'd rather be a fool refusing to blindly follow hype than be a fool who spent a load of cash on something I just blindly accepted the manufacturers claims for.

999.9999 time out of a hundred, when a paintballer is talking about BPS, the "P" is silent. )

[FragTek]

A claim of 16+ on a revvy is definately a bogus statement.

A revvy is a true gravity drop feed system. In a scenario such as the Egg or Apache the balls are propelled at a faster rate than gravity would usually pull them once the initially lined up ball stack has been depleted.

That is where the technology of the recessed tray comes into play where the balls are sorted and then shot down the raceways hole (using an Egg as an example, can't speak on the Apache's behalf) by force of the impeller in an orderly fashion.

These feed rates just are not capable in a setup like the Revvy's. Each ball has to fight to get to the feed hole by aid of an agitation device. This is definately not a high feed rate design by any means.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
In a scenario such as the Egg or Apache the balls are propelled at a faster rate than gravity would usually pull them once the initially lined up ball stack has been depleted.

Which makes sense only if the hopper is emptying to air. If it's feeding a marker the limiting factor is the gravity feed ball stack.

Unless there is pressure being applied to the ball stack, when the bolt comes back and the breech opens, the only thing that moves the ball into the breech is gravity.

Now, the egg may indeed give some force to the balls. As it is holding the balls and spinning them. But the Apache is just four tines.

[FragTek]

Under very high rates of fire the ball never meets the top of the bolt and thus emulates as if the balls were being dropped to air and not into a breech. At the top of the hoppers fastest feed rate when the guns speed matches that rate it's basically a constant flow of paintballs with no stops all the way from the hopper and out the barrel of the gun.

However with the Z-Board there is a bit more pressure put behind the balls at all times, even when the guns firing rate is less than the maximum feed rate of the hopper. When I installed the Z board into my Egg that's when it really seemed to unlock the potential of the hopper as it seems to be "smart". It auto-adjusts the speed of the impeller and what have you. The technology behind it I am still a bit uncertain of, but it gets the job done very well and very quickly.

Edit: Again I can't really relate to the Apache because I haven't used one, but the design doesnt seem to be executed NEARLY as nicely as the Evo's system. I believe that the Egg's raceway system really helps the balls get to it's final destination faster.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by FragTek
I believe that the Egg's raceway system really helps the balls get to it's final destination faster.

For a quick look I'd agree. And indeed your explaination of the Egg holds some merit. It's certainly more logical than the excrement WAS gave about AI and 'slapping' the balls down the tube.

However, I still proclaim: "Give me proof!"

Anyone with an electro-cocker capable of automatic fire could copy the WARPIG test. Just remove the barrel, disconnect the cocking rod, and fire full auto.

It's the easiness of the test that makes me claim 'shenanigans' when the manufacturers make claims without backing them up.

[FragTek]

I'm hoping that Mossman will shoot a quick vid...

My cam doesn't record sound w/ vids and I don't have my egg anymore Plus my cocker is frameless right now.

I have a few *minor* setbacks, rofl.

[Mossman]

I've got a camera more than capable of doing it, and I believe I can hook up an external mic to get better sound. The only setback is air, I usually get my scuba filled at a dive place but I think the ocean is frozen over I can definately get it done in a week, I got practice next sunday and can get air then.

soon...soon