Does anyone still use CO2?

[Brophog]

Re: Re: IT DEPENDS ON THE MARKER

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


I'm speaking about:

HPA vs CO2

not

regulated HPA vs. regulated CO2

CO2 has much greater pressure variances than HPA.

If you're going to say "if set-up right" then it's not really a fair performance comparison between the two air sources. The performance gains by regulating CO2 are much greater than the performance gains by regulating HPA.

Is it a fair comparison? Sure it is. When was the last time you ever ran HPA unregulated? By definition HPA is regulated, unless your running 3000+ psi through your marker, which I don't recommend.

One of the chief reasons HPA shows such consistent qualities is that it is regulated, and in most cases DOUBLE regulated. Notice in Glenn's above statement that he runs his Blazer that way with CO2. If you're able to run CO2 double regulated at 400 psi, you'll notice NO difference between CO2 and HPA for the above reasons that 'trains are bad' has given. CO2 is 400 psi at around 19 degrees Farenheit. During normal temperatures (Anything but a hearty winter), your going to have a difficult time getting your marker down to 19 degrees, regardless of how fast you shoot. Therefore, your marker will be consistent, relative to the paint.

Therefore to make a fair comparison, you must use regulated CO2 vs regulated HPA.

[trains are bad]

Yay someone understands. Unregged Co2 is not even safe, really. I have tipped stock tippmanns down until they fired snow and they shot 350+fps.

[TheTramp]

Re: Re: IT DEPENDS ON THE MARKER

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


I'm speaking about:

HPA vs CO2

not

regulated HPA vs. regulated CO2

CO2 has much greater pressure variances than HPA.

If you're going to say "if set-up right" then it's not really a fair performance comparison between the two air sources. The performance gains by regulating CO2 are much greater than the performance gains by regulating HPA.

No, you're talking about regulated HPA vs unregulated CO2

All HPA is regulated.

CO2 w/ an inline reg = 1 reg.
HPA w/ an inline reg = 2 regs.

The comparison of HPA vs a MAX-Flo CO2 system (or CO2 w/ a good CO2 friendly reg)isn't as one sided as a lot of people like to think.

edit: as Brophog just said...:o

[Jack & Coke]

you are correct... i made a mistake when I said

"unregulated" HPA

what, i was trying to point out was:

vs.

screwed into a gun like a tippy or spyder.

in the above example, the first air source (HPA) is more consistant than the second air source (CO2).

Speaking in general, HPA is only one medium (gas), CO2 is usually two (gas + liquid). CO2 must undergo a phase change depending on the pressure/temperature... much more variables to deal with compared to compressed air.

[Brophog]

The only thing that really points out is that most people use CO2 wrongly, and therefore the gas gets a bad rap.

If you use it properly, it will be every bit as consistent as HPA used properly.

Don't blame CO2 for people's ignorance.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Brophog


If you use it properly, it will be every bit as consistent as HPA used properly.

...only if you shoot low ROF and short strings

[Brophog]

You don't get it, do you?

Consistency of CO2 is a direct relation to the temperature and therefore operating pressure of the gas.

You can shoot as fast as you want to, provided that the subsequent chilling of the tank is at a temperature that corresponds with the pressure given said marker.

In other words, the faster you shoot, the lower the pressure of your marker must be in order to counter the chilling effects associated with boiling the liquid to a gas.

It DOES NOT MEAN that you can't use CO2 with a fast shooting marker.

[JKR]

Originally posted by trains are bad
Yay someone understands. Unregged Co2 is not even safe, really. I have tipped stock tippmanns down until they fired snow and they shot 350+fps.

Regulating CO2 certainly isn't a bad thing, but not necessary in preventing major velocity spikes. Liquid is your enemy and isn't anything a properly installed anti-siphon tube can't help tremendously.

I shoot my Tippmann with an antisiphon tube, no regulator and no expansion chamber and it shoots no more than +/- 10fps. The field I frequent has a 285 limit for that very reason.

Justin

[trains are bad]

I consider an anti-siphon tube mandatory for any horizontal bottle application.

[Major Jam]

I finally had to leave CO2 because of valve freeze on my mag. I like to shoot my marker... fast... I can afford the paint nowadays.

With an electronic grip... three or for bursts and my o-rings were froze and I was leaking down the barrel.

A no siphon valve through a remote line, through a 5 stage expansion chamber... It still froze the AIR valve.

[Raven4000SX]

I only use Co2 on my Spyder (backup gun/loaner gun). On my Mag I have to use HPA witht the X-Valve.

[RtDaNiMaL]

i have an RT Pro, so this thing only runs on compressed air

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by Brophog
You don't get it, do you?

The fact that CO2 must undergo a phase change complicates matters during rapid exchange.

Temperature drop while using CO2 is unavoidable during high ROF.

Even is you were able to keep liquid out of your marker, how well do you think the seals on your regs would perform when subjected to extreme temperature drops? Do you think the reg piston's ability to slide smoothly and consistantly would not be affected by freezing temperatures? Not to mention the various pressure fluctuations of the CO2 gas itself, as it trys to find an equilibrium between high pressure gaseous and liquid states.

Originally posted by Brophog
You can shoot as fast as you want to, provided that the subsequent chilling of the tank is at a temperature that corresponds with the pressure given said marker.

In other words, the faster you shoot, the lower the pressure of your marker must be in order to counter the chilling effects associated with boiling the liquid to a gas.

Sure you may be able to get your marker to funciton... but how well would it perform under a long 15-20+ bps string?

Your markers ability to perform consistanly is at high ROF is also at the mercy of your CO2's state of condition...

Do you think a 20 oz tank filled to 19-20 oz. performs the same as a 20oz tank filled to only 5 oz, during a 15-20+ bps 5-10 sec string (as commonly done off the break)?

So, like I said in the other post:

"...only if you shoot low ROF and short strings..." (will CO2 have a chance of being as consistant as HPA)

As far as gas attributes go during high performance games (i.e. tournament style):

A. ability to provide consistant shot-to-shot pressures
B. ability to provide consistant operating conditions (allowing your guns internal parts and regulators to work properly)
C. ability to provide enough volume of gas (to avoid "starving the gun")

HPA vs CO2

HPA wins.

[Brophog]

Your still not understanding this.

The fact that CO2 must undergo a phase change complicates matters during rapid exchange.

Liquid in the gun, depending on the marker, can complicate things. I'm certainly not suggesting using CO2 in ALL markers.

The fact that it goes through a phase change is irrelevant though, if you use a low enough pressure, which is my whole point.

Even is you were able to keep liquid out of your marker, how well do you think the seals on your regs would perform when subjected to extreme temperature drops? Do you think the reg piston's ability to slide smoothly and consistantly would not be affected by freezing temperatures? Not to mention the various pressure fluctuations of the CO2 gas itself, as it trys to find an equilibrium between high pressure gaseous and liquid states.

Depends on the reg. I use a stabilizer and do very very well with it. Once again, not all regs handle liquid well, due to the seals. A reg that does handle CO2 though, like the stab, has no problem in this regard.

Sure you may be able to get your marker to funciton... but how well would it perform under a long 15-20+ bps string?

Again, irrelevant as long as you have the pressure low enough in relation to the temperature drop created boiling off the gas.

Do you think a 20 oz tank filled to 19-20 oz. performs the same as a 20oz tank filled to only 5 oz, during a 15-20+ bps 5-10 sec string (as commonly done off the break)?

It will perform just fine, provided the fact that the full bottle isn't so full that your allowing liquid into the marker.

Aside from the liquid getting into your marker, which varies greatly with the marker, this is all a simple matter of temperature vs pressure. As long as your marker requires a pressure lower than the pressure associated with the LOWEST temperature output of that tank at any given time, you'll be fine.

You have a blazer, correct? Run an experiment for us. Use dual stabs, at around 400 psi. Give it a good differential between stabs. Now use well fitting paint, and tell us the outcome.

[viperx1_1000]

Yeah
I don't have a choice, it's co2 or you don't play, or drive 200 miles to get n2, i'm so deprived!!!