Legal threat to paintball in Wisconsin

[Thordic]

It was New Jersey, Bill. The link to that story is in one of my above posts. Paintball was illegal in New Jersey until 1988.

When you mentioned the NRA lawyer, I had a thought. Wouldn't these sort of laws (anti-paintball) have some sort of interest to the NRA? They have IMMENSE lobbying power, if one could get the NRA behind paintball, we would have a much stronger legal position.

I am very aware that paintball tries to distance itself from firearms as much as possible, and that the association isn't healthy for the sport, but if there wasn't a vague association, but the full swing of the NRA behind paintball, then maybe it wouldn't matter since we would gain lobbying power?

Just something to toss up for thought. It may be bad for public opinion but a good idea legally, or maybe just a bad idea all around. It just popped into my head, so I figured I'd mention it. It probably deserves its own thread.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by billmi
The PPMA executive director who is spearheading the effort to get this bill into a hearing is an attorney who has previous experience as a federal lobbyist for the NRA, in addition to assorted pro-paintball lobbying efforts including re-write of the toy gun bill

Perfect! Then he knows how to do it then. Good luck to him on this. Can we get him on the AO from time to time for an update on this Bill...uh...er...Bill?

[shartley]

I fully understand everyone's points and stances. I am also glad they posted them... THAT is what a discussion is, and THAT is what is best for Paintball. And I am also glad that we live in a society that ALLOWS differences in opinions. And differences in opinions do not make people BAD. They also do not denote any LESS caring for the Industry as a whole, just a difference in opinion(s).


Bill, thank you for your response. You bring up some good points, again thank you. However,

Personally, I don't share your view that government restricting the activity of citizens without hearing their input is not problematic.

I never stated that view, nor do I agree with it either. I said that I would not schedule a meeting so that I could be "educated" by some paintball people. There is a BIG difference between the RIGHT way to provide input into the Law Making process, and acting as if anyone BUT Paintball Players and Industry people know anything. That was my point. There is a process, and like Phil stated, it is not a short one.... there are ways your voices can be heard. And Phil touches on that issue as well, and very nicely.

This Thread has come a LONG way from the initial post, and THAT is a good thing. Various sides are being looked at, and rational arguments formed. Again, this is a GOOD thing, unless people want to form a group that does not allow differing opinions... something like what people are saying the Wisconsin Government is doing.

Just because you can not be heard how you want to be heard (as Phil stated) does NOT mean you can not be heard. To think that is simply not correct. There are procedures that must be followed. I strongly support people following them, and letting their Law Makers know how they feel. This will not guarantee that anything will change, but I get the feeling if it does not, people will cry "injustice" until they are blue in the face. Sometimes things happen that we don't want, and sometimes Laws are made that are just silly... but they are made.

We must pick our battles. And like I said, THIS is one that I personally would not fight.... at this stage in the game. Does that make me evil? Does that mean I care less about the paintball industry and the sport in general? I think not. And anyone who would like to claim that needs to do some self reflection. Do not assign me views or opinions that I do not have. Do not assign my position on ONE issue as what it would be for ALL issues. This concerns me greatly.

We all have important things going on in our lives, and even more so during the Holiday Season... And disagreeing with someone's views is not all that important in the big picture. Being CIVIL is. And realizing that you CAN have differences in opinions and still be nice people.

I will leave it at that.... Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

(Note: Bill, much of this was not directed at your post. I am sure you can see that.)

[skipdogg]

Unite Wisconsin players

all us wisconsinites please take the time to write a NICE letter to DuWayne and ask him to speak with the PPMA.

Bill - check your AO mailbox

[shartley]

Merry Christmas.

[billmi]

Originally posted by cphilip

Good stuff Bill...

Thanks.

Thats why you contact your Representative and Congressman. So he can represent you.

I couldn't agree more.

I disagree with Shartly's view that putting forth one's views to legislative representative will only "make the public perceive the 'Paintball Community' in a worse light"

The ONLY way they can represent your ideas is if you tell them your ideas.

I think there is still plenty of time for that.

According to the attorney who is lobbying this for the PPMA, and who is an experienced lobbyist, there is not. I've asked for more information on the details of why, in light of your post.

It is very possible that this is something that doesn't go through the full legislative process, yet gets the power of law because of a law giving the committee jurisdiction over a sub-set of laws. This would be like the recent law which makes it illegal to feed fish in Florida. It didn't have to go through the house and senate or go before the governor, because the existing laws give the relevant committee the ability to enact it. And talk about a hot debate in public hearings.... It went through anyway despite a total lack of evidence by its proponents. The committee (I believe from the house of representatives) claimed their sudden reversal of their viewpoint had nothing to do with the widely publicized shark bites on New Smyrna beach this summer (though there were less shark attacks this year than last year in FL - those attacks got big publicity because it was a slow news weak). So, starting in January you can only feed wild fish if you put a hook in the food and intend to kill them. I've never fed wild fish, but that's entirely beside the point - I've had another freedom (i.e. choice of personal recreational activities) removed without cause.

But I feel we should counter with something positive in case they have real concerns of how to regulate it if they do not Ban it...

So lets propose something to satisfy that just in case. My thoughts on it anyway...

That's all in the PPMA's game plan, but they can't do that unless it goes into a hearing.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by Thordic
It was New Jersey, Bill. The link to that story is in one of my above posts. Paintball was illegal in New Jersey until 1988.

Thanks for the confirmation

Wouldn't these sort of laws (anti-paintball) have some sort of interest to the NRA? They have IMMENSE lobbying power...


I am very aware that paintball tries to distance itself from firearms as much as possible...

It's my understanding that this situation has really been the other way around. The NRA has not been getting behind paintball, due to fear of associating itself with an activity where a "gun" is pointed at people in anything other than defending life/liberty/property.

I know for certain that this is the reason paintball is not allowed at the SHOT (Shooting Hunting Outdoor Trade) show.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[cphilip]

You could be correct and this is not even a Bill (again... I have not seen it or read it yet) but an amendment to powers already invested in DNR. But the fact it is in a Legislative Committee seems to indicate it might just be a full bill. If thats the case we are in good shape but....If not then yes its imperative that that be discovered quickly. I would love to hear what you can find out.

[steveg]

Thordic,shartley ,and billmi everyone has made their statements
and responses so please let it go now.

Bill has made everyone and especially Wisconsin aware of
a Law that appears to have no merit.

A while back Bill, amongst others brought to everyone's
attention that The Canadian Government completely by
accident, was going to classify paintball markers a lethal
and therefore regulated weapon.

A lot of people contacted the government
pointed out the error, the error was corrected paintball
was "saved'

the error was the use of OR instead of AND

Lets not hijack this thread.

[bofh]

Originally posted by Thordic

Whoa! Hold on there. If I'm not mistaken, Shartley was referring to Chicken Little, not "the boy who cried wolf"...

Let's keep things straight here.

But, arguing among ourselves is not to really do anything, so can we keep this to a minimum? Pretty please?

[shartley]

Bill

I disagree with Shartly's view that putting forth one's views to legislative representative will only "make the public perceive the 'Paintball Community' in a worse light"

That is take out of context, sorry.

When reading my other posts it is clear what I mean.. or should be. But I will not get into it here. Too easy to take things out of context to prove any point a person wants to make.

The actual conversations have begun and that is great. And that was my intent. Sort of what everyone is saying the Government should do.. right?

[cphilip]

steveg & bofh

Good points you two. Thats why I am heavily editing the thread as it goes. I want this one to live...

[billmi]

Status of NR 45.04(3)(q)

I've just received e-mail confirming my understanding of NR 45.04(3)(q).

It does not have to go through the full legislative process to become a law, because it is a modification of existing regulations that are given power by law.

Unless a hearing is scheduled today, it will be enacted as a regulation that is given legal power under an already existing law.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[cphilip]

Bad news...

[shartley]

But... would I be correct in assuming that if it can be modified, it can be modified AGAIN? I look through the NH RSA's all the time and a good portion of them are in constant "flux" due to modifications. It is not the end of the world. Just needs more modifications.