Bounce Test on Paintballs First Results

[AGD]

AO,

First of all I want to give a big AO thank you to the few dedicated members that provided data for this project. You are a credit to paintball by your willingness to get involved and seek the truth. You have my respect and dedication. For the 800 people who will read this post, remember who baked the bread.

Day one data is graphed below.



Notice that the one bounce column is HUGE! These are the balls that broke on the first drop (we call it bounce). It is so large in comparison to the others that it seems something in not right with the paint in general. If we saw this in our paintball production we would assume something is going wrong. The standard deviation and mean tells us that we can expect 2/3rds of our balls to break between 1 and 8.5 bounces. For the pro tourney guy this distribution means that the maximum number of balls will break on target and the fewest will not break at all.



Day two shows a 50% reduction in one bounce balls. This is dramatic and notable since the other columns in the chart are hardly affected at all. There is however a doubling of the high bounce balls in the right most column. For the average player this means half the number of balls breaking in the barrel and about double not breaking at all. This seems like a great compromise between fragile and too bouncy. Remember, most of your shots fall in the same category as the super fragile paint.



Day three things hardly change at all. This indicates that you can leave the paint in this humidified bag for a long time without changing it too much. Here is where a new product could hatch, it looks like it is very possible to add a humidifier to each bag of paint to keep it stable.

I will continue to think about other ways to analyze the data. If you have any ideas post them here.

AGD

[shartley]

Tom,
Three days is nice, but would it be possible to do some long term testing (say a week to a month, or more) and see if there is any noticeable differences?

You stated:

Day three things hardly change at all. This indicates that you can leave the paint in this humidified bag for a long time without changing it too much.

When this is actually not accurate. It indicates that you can leave it in the humidified bag for three days and the last two days will produce similar results. It does not show any *long term* results at all. You can not estimate any sort of long term results from such a short test period. The results *may* end up the same, but without the actual tests, it is a guess and not even a scientific one.

And I ask this because 3 days is fine, but I know many who keep their balls much longer than that, and thus the 3 day test results may actually not be an accurate indication for them of how well a bag humidifier would help them in real world application. Many short term tests fail to provide accurate long term results... I know many stabilizing tests degradate over time, even when conducted in the same conditions. I was wondering if this would be the case here.

This would help determine the product's effectiveness and the level it would be sold at. Example:

If the "ball humidifier" stabilized the balls for 3 days to a week, that in my opinion, would not be worth buying for the average consumer (depending on individual cost). They would simply be going through too many of them for the results given. It would be fine for tournament players that may want the consistency (or slight edge), but I don't think you are trying to develop a "nitch" product.

If it stabilized the balls for up to a month or more, it would be ideal to sell to the end consumer, or for fields and shops.

And if it lasts for 3-6 months, or more, it would be a fantastic direct sell to the manufacturers of the paintballs.

But none of this can be determined unless some sort of long term test(s) is(are) conducted. And to think a 3 day test will determine long term effectiveness of this type of product (or *any* product) is simply not scientific at all. This is a great starting point, but is actually not an indication of anything other than a three day test.

Do you see long term testing as a possibility for you? Sure, it would mean putting off any production by the length of the extended testing, but I think it would be worth it in the long run... for Paintball as an Industry.

I look forward to hearing your response.

- Sam

[Webmaster]

Once the paintball has stabilized to the humidity in the bag - it should remain constant as long as the humidified environment remains constant.

That is to say, if the humidity in the bag is 75% and doesnt change, once the paint ball has stabilized to the humidity, it shouldnt remain stable. Sort of like once you are wet, you cant get wetter.

Now if the humidity rose er fell, then there would a change in the paintball as it re-adjusted to the envrioment...

So - if the paint was left at a constant humidity for a month - since there is no varible acting in it, it should remain constant.

Cigars if left in the proper humidor will last for YEARS - and actually age and change in taste as compounds in the tobacco break down. Of course we have to deal with other nastys like beetles ( they lay thier eggs in the tobacco, hatch if it gets over 80% and can ruin hudreds (thousands) of dollars worth of cigars in your humidor) and Mold.

[Cha0tic]

i agree with sam. there needs to be some long term (1 week-1 month) testing. many player play once a week, once every 2 weeks, or once a month. testing paint over 2-3 days won't help these players out much.

[shartley]

Webby
Thank you for your response. That helps a lot.

Now, I guess the other variables that would cause a problem would be the temperature and actual humidity changes caused by outside factors? Do we know how this would affect the process? We do know that the balls will *not* be kept at ideal conditions.... can the bag humidifier be developed to compensate for that?

I know it is fairly easy to take moisture *out* of bags, but I would think that as a practical application, the reverse would be much more difficult.... when not done in a controlled environment.

So, I guess a more accurate question on *my* part would not be the validity of the tests and their projected extended results, but the validity of the tests in a real world application and not a *controlled* environment? And if you can maintain the humidity in normal conditions?

Another question I would like to ask is if the natural breakdown of the paintballs would be a determining factor for practical purposes? Cigars are not paintballs, and the materials they are made of is greatly different. But you even brought up the issue of natural deterioration:

Cigars if left in the proper humidor will last for YEARS - and actually age and change in taste as compounds in the tobacco break down.

So, how does the actual materials used in paintballs react over time and what is their natural deterioration (or break down) rate, and then what would it be in this new *semi-controlled* humidified environment? This may be a great advancement in paintball life alone, even if it does not greatly affect how the paintball reacts... just extends the time it *does*. (If that makes sense... LOL)

I guess part of my questioning has to do with the great differences between a controlled test environment and real world conditions, and how they can then render the *lab* results ineffectual in practical applications. That is why most other things are taken from a *lab* setting to the *real world* to determine actual effectiveness.. of course normally only if it passes the *lab* tests with appropriate results... which seems to be the case here.

Again, we often we find that things that work in a lab do not work well once take out of the lab. I sincerely hope this is *not* the case here... but look forward to seeing how this progresses. I guess my natural pessimism makes me the perfect *what if* guy... LOL

It may still be that actual *long term* testing needs to be done, but not just in a lab setting, but in normal conditions expected?

This is quite interesting... Any answers to my further questions are VERY welcomed and looked forward to. Thanks.

[irbodden]

I'd love a product to make paintball last. More research is needed to see if they will last for monthes at a time? You could probly make a small chest the size of a case or so, with a humidifier built into it, and make a real steal on it. I know I'd pay a good penny for one.

[Webmaster]

The challenge Tom has ahead of him is two things:

What humidity is optimal for paint storage.

How does one achieve that optimal humidity.

In cigars we use a 50/50 mix of Prypol Glycol (oo thats not spelle right, but anyway) and water.

This PG will insure that the humidity remains constant at 70%.

We also store our cigars at 70 degrees optimally. This is to help achieve the 70% humidity, and if it gets too hot (over 80 degrees) any tobacoo with beetle eggs will have an infestation brewing.

The temperature isnt too important - as you just need it "room" temperature and you can fudge on it to a degree. You can even fudge on the humidity to a point - but too dry and the cigars smoke hot and become brittle. Too wet and its like smoking a sponge and your head explodes trying to a get a good draw.

So... once Tom determines the optimal humity, there are multiple ways to achieve it for the regular person. If its around 70 or 75 you can to the PG/H2O soultion or a slurry of salt and water. If its something different, we may need to find another solution that helps to achieve a constant humidity.

Professional cigar shops have a humidifier with adjust able settings - but thats impractical for most standar users.

As for the regular paintballer - if a system is developed, it would be easy to store thier paint in coolers (many smokers prefer to make a $50 cooler humidor and spend their money on cigars). For cigars it get a bit pricey because we use spanish ceder to line everything as it adds to flavor and the aging process.

But for joe paintball - if this works our right, he can store his paint in a $20 cooler from walmart and use a $20 humidification device to keep it at a constant humidity.

And finally, in order to take the moisture out of the bags - just open them up! We have to when first setting up a humidor it takes time to stabilize and sometime when adding new cigars that are "wet" it will try to over humidify the humidor.

[Webmaster]

As for paintball longievity - I would imagine the compounds are pretty stable and wont break down over any small amount of time. They ARE organic and will decompose over the years, but I know of paint lasting today for a year or two and shoot ok. So I dont think we need to worry about decomposition any time soon.

[marc]

Sorry, I guess I did not send my results for my last day in soon enough, eventhough I have had them. My mom has turned me into her slave over xmas and I was gana post the results but its closed and to late. Sorry about that. Tom if you need to have further testing done like at a different humitity count me in.

[hitech]

I still have the three sets of paintballs from my test in the humidor. Interested in a bounce test?

[joeyjoe367]

Instead of making a "case" sorta thing to keep paintballs in good shape, maybe something small and disposable would work better.

Maybe some of you know of those small silicon packets that come in some stuff, something like that.. you could just toss it in each 500 rnd bag of paint to keep it good for a month or however long it works, and then replace it, etc..

I think something like that would be a bit more practical. Besides, some people order several cases at a time, and it wouldn't be practical to have a huge icebox for all that paint.

[Russ]

My Rant!

Guys...The sad truth is that there are 3500+ members on AO, and only 7 members (who did 12 COMPLETE tests) could volunteer their time, a few paintballs and some salt to help out. I should mention that another 6 members never completed their tests.

This data is very limited, and no conclusions can really be made from it. Tom had asked for a minimum of 50 tests to get some useful data.

Tom hands out a few free nubbins, though, and everyone's stumbling over their keyboard to get some!

C'mon guys!

(OK, I'm done Ranting )

[845]

I have the results just when I got around to posting them the thread was gone.

[gimp]

I was at school, and had no paint Now I'm at home, and have some very old paint that I'd try it with.

[MajorDamage]

Hey Tom, can I still post my results, seeing as how there is still paint in my humidor? I missed Saturday and Sunday, but I did the test yesterday(Monday), and it seems this paint is very inconsistent. I'm getting no bounces, then 24! Whats up with this? I think my paint may be too inconsistent to tell if its getting better or worse.
Here are my original results followed by the newest results.

Start of test

AO nickname - MajorDamage
Manufacturer of paint- 32 Degrees
Name of paint (Blaze, Advantage etc)- San Fransisco Team Colors
How many weeks old is this paint? - I bought this Saturday, but I think its about 1 to 2 months old.
Is this dry paint? - no

Date-12/18/01
Time- 5:10
Bounce test results individual numbers 1-10
-15, 0, 9, 4, 4, 0, 0, 1, 4, 10
Bounce average - 4.7
Comments- Very inconsistent I guess lol

Second day results

Date-12/19/01
Time- 5:10
Bounce test results individual numbers 1-10 - 1, 6, 6, 0, 4, 1, 18, 2, 2, 2
Bounce average - 4.2
Comments- I guess it got a little better, and it stayed about the same bore size(I check it)

Third day results

Date-12/20/01
Time- 5:10
Bounce test results individual numbers 1-10 - 4, 4, 11, 1, 4, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0
Bounce average - 2.6
Comments- Seems to be getting more brittle...

Fourth Day Results

Date-12/21/01
Time- 5:10
Bounce test results individual numbers 1-10
- 7, 0, 12, 5, 0, 4, 0, 5, 24, 2, 1
Bounce average - 6
Comments- Inconsistent......lol


Sixth Day Results

Date-12/24/01
Time- 5:15
Bounce test results individual numbers 1-10
2,0,24,4,4,6,1,14,4,5
Bounce average - 5.4
Comments- ?????Why is this soooo inconsistent??? lol

ENDO!