Face Masks or not?

[Tyger]

Goatboy :

I realised that my poll and question were going to be lumped into one "question" by some people too late to really do anyhting about it. My fault. I tired to have the poll ask one question, then ask another to promote discussion in the group. Bad wording, my fault.

The poll is asking it masks should be mandatory.
The question is "if it were an option, would you go without a face mask?"

But here's another question, since the thread has turned this way. Do we need to protect paintball's image? Does face welts really "Damage" paintball's growth? A part of me is thinking that paintball's "image" isn't so shakey anymore. And if we're an "Extreme Sport", what's the matter with it?

Just asking questions. Debate is good.

(Oh, read the other post too GoatBoy. I'll keep it in mind. But I've seen people walk onto fields with damaged goggles too, I don't know, it might be testworthy...)

-Tyger

[Albinonewt]

Although the image isn't nearly as fragile as it was 10 or 15 years ago that doesn't mean we should just assmue it's always going to be ok and we can just let things ride. The reason we have a good image now is because of the safety precautions that have been developed and implemented over the years. Going back on that could very well have long term (and possibly short term) consequences.

[tasker89]

First allow me to apologize if my comments made anyone feel "wimpy." While some good-natured ribbing was intended...I wasn't trying to call anyone's toughness into question directly.

Everyone has their own tolerance level. I would be willing to exchange some risk for comfort. Not everyone would be willing to do that. I also come from the "rub some dirt on it and get back in the game" school of thought...so perhaps my perspective is skewed.

Tyrion let me ask you this: Would players need to be covered in head to toe padding, full masks with retention straps, padded hats and gloves if the game was played more safely? Which is less safe...playing without a mask...or playing a game with a force fed, safety-less, large triggerguard, 16bps, velocity ramping, shot buffering, projectile launcher on a field the size of postage stamp.

There was a time when engaging another player at less then 10' was unacceptable EXCEPT in tourney play.

Overshooting was discouraged because it drove new players out of the game.

One shot one pull meant just that.

Player education and safety concerns were paramount...and not just paid lip service.

You "sold" paintball to new players as an egalatarian game. One in which physical ability, EQUIPMENT used, and money spent were not what decided your success in a day of play...you "sold" the game to others by telling them that their wits and cunning would more than tip the scales in their favor. Its hard to play on equal footing when the entire game now revolves around an arms race.

[GoatBoy]

Goatboy :

I realised that my poll and question were going to be lumped into one "question" by some people too late to really do anyhting about it. My fault. I tired to have the poll ask one question, then ask another to promote discussion in the group. Bad wording, my fault.

The poll is asking it masks should be mandatory.
The question is "if it were an option, would you go without a face mask?"

But here's another question, since the thread has turned this way. Do we need to protect paintball's image? Does face welts really "Damage" paintball's growth? A part of me is thinking that paintball's "image" isn't so shakey anymore. And if we're an "Extreme Sport", what's the matter with it?

Just asking questions. Debate is good.

(Oh, read the other post too GoatBoy. I'll keep it in mind. But I've seen people walk onto fields with damaged goggles too, I don't know, it might be testworthy...)

-Tyger

Hrm. Slippery question this one.

By the way, I'm not faulting you for your wording; everyone should have been able to figure it out. I was just trying to get it clear. Unfortunately, the thing I said about not reading the question, not understanding the question, or just not being able to think is still going to apply. Thus is life.


Do we need to protect our image? Well, what is our image?


I think we went from an image of a somewhat uneducated niche group of basically friendly, yet somewhat crazy, guys who ran around the woods shooting at each other... to a much larger group of even dumber adolescents (either by age or by mental capacity) wielding flashy and expensive equipment while running their mouths about things "pimp" or "bling", for the purpose of making themselves feel ... special. Yep, it's an extreme sport alright. Extremely dumb.

So, that's my image of paintball. Asking me if the image needs protecting is like... asking me if I gift wrap my poo before I flush it.



Do facial welts/injuries damage paintball's growth?


"So, you play paintball every weekend?"
"Yup."
"Man, I'd love to play, but I've seen some wicked nasty facial welts from that stuff."
"That's what we have facemasks for."
"Oh. I heard they weren't mandatory though."
"Do you like your face the way it is?"


Slightly more severe scenario:

"Oh my god, little Johnny has a welt on his face!"
"That's what we have facemasks for. Why wasn't he wearing one?"
"Because they aren't mandatory!"
"Gee, I wonder where Johnny got his 'stupid' genes from."
"Well, I never! I'm never coming back!"
*crowd applauses*
"Don't forget your kid on the way out. His Rasta A4 is over there."


(This is, of course, barring legal repercussions.)

[Won Hunglo]

Shop goggles rule!

So many wusses here today. Come on guys suck it up & grow some nads. I missed playing with shop goggles 15 years ago. It rocked. I still remember when the first JT Spectra type mask came out & we had to retire our shop goggles to play non outlaw ball. We tossed the visor & face sheild away & played like real men. Mask ONLY!

Still to this day: Outlaw ball with shop goggles rules!

[Torbo]

So many wusses here today. Come on guys suck it up & grow some nads. I missed playing with shop goggles 15 years ago. It rocked. I still remember when the first JT Spectra type mask came out & we had to retire our shop goggles to play non outlaw ball. We tossed the visor & face sheild away & played like real men. Mask ONLY!

Still to this day: Outlaw ball with shop goggles rules!

right, cool till you get bunkered in the mouth. 4 or 5 in the face from 2 feet away will hurt. have fun with that. Maybe thats what you used to do. Maybe youre masachistic too.
And dont say "thats because of cheaters shooting so fast", becuase people can shoot nice and fast with mech guns, and bunker you in the face, and itll still hurt.

[ramennoodles]

i say it should be mandatory not because i want to, because there is no question for me, i am going to NO MATTER WHAT, call me a wuss? thats fine, but i don't want to put myself in unneccisary [sp?] risk, but i say yes because when i'm reffing i don't want to clean up someone who decided to not to wear a mask.

[Beemer]

Then you're either bling or you weren't playing when paintball really wasn't that safe.

Well I am bling and I was playing then, since 85 thats 19yrs, and you have been playing how long?

let me add this, I really dont see this[any more] Every thing in your post is true, but we have hit a wall. Doesnt 20 yrs and no true governing body make ya wonder?[it should]

If the industry cared why would they put up standards, just to say, oh its not mandatory.

A Dye add I read says tested to twice the current ASTM impact standards[gog add] Thats great I want those. Twice as safe right. The current standard is 8 hits 3 left 3 right and 2 anywhere you think is weak. But wait they sell a gun that will do 16 to 20 plus bps? Bounce buffer bla bla pull 12 times and shoot 16 etc..etc.. kinda like full auto kinda like not even close to ASTM gun standards.[They care about whos safety] What happens when you shoot me with the Dye gun, and I got the other guys gogs that arent tested to twice the standards? Come to think of it if you werent going full face, I would take a pass on play. Welts are all in fun but the last thing I want is to put someones eye out.

As for the players, Sadly they dont know or dont care. They buy and use These guns that clearly dont meet standards and have the potential to cause some serious harm.

One shot one pull or full auto and bring the safety gear with it


Rabid.........Thanks for the reply but you still didnt answer this one. Why?

"Three years ago I designed a head retention system for goggles that would keep goggles on heads regardless of impact AND which would eliminate the risk of 'facemasking' injuries; the design was aftermarket, so ANY system could have it installed. Do you see it out there today? NO. Why?"


"Want me to continue? I've got 21+ years of venom waiting to be spewed - it ought to be pretty entertaining..."

Sure bring it on, Ya I want ya to. 19 yrs for me so can I join in? It will save on my therapy and meds cost.

Shop gogs my ***. I want full auto 350fps. I got full face helmet with 1/8 plexiglass, not this cheap stuff lexan, and hard side body armor like this.




I.A.D.S.P.B.P

Beemer

we gonna jack Tygers thread or what

[rabidchihauhau]

Beemer,

its probably not in production because the same folks who built the prototype for me are also the ones who hijacked the USPL format and turned it into the BS X-Balls thing.
(X-Balls Paintball: We have been castrated)

I had fun testing them: found the biggest, fastest, heaviest guy at the field that day and asked him to slamm(TM) the bunker I'd be behind. Gun went flying, I went flying, goggs stayed on the head. (We did this numerous times to the tune of a day-long headache for me and a bunker that had ripped off of its bungee attachements).

Or it might have something to do with the fact that all the powers that be thought 'chin strap' and they're too afraid to admit that what they backed is more inherently dangerous than no strap at all...

I don't know.

Actually, I think it has mostly to do with the fact that their version of the USPL format eliminated the slamming(tm) element and therefore a better head retention system is not needed. Bury the format, bury me, bury the stuff I invented. That way we can get away with saying that we invented it all over the past ten years and everyone ought to worship at our feet because Dick Clark optioned it.....

Satisfied? (probably not, but then Beemers an old skooler and knows how to deal with a little frustration...)

***

Now I turn my attention to the individual who stated that because the poll had a majority of votes in favor of mandatory facemasks that that absolutely means, without question, that requiring facemasks means its a safety concern.

Sorry pal, all your argument proves is that the majority of people who voted in this poll think so. Here's my latest poll: do you think that using internet polls as proof in an argument constitutes idiocy? Yes, I do. Therefore, since the majority said yes - you can draw your own conclusions...

Did I not speak clearly? I do think that those people who use facemasks are wimps - is that clear enough? Or, to put a finer point on it, they can't hack it. Now let's be clear here: I think in the limited context of wearing or not wearing masks for paintball, wearing one is wimpiness. Does that mean I am indicting everyone here who wears a mask? No. Does it mean that I think that those who do are wimps all the time? No. What it means is that I think the process of wearing a mask implies wimpiness - for anyone who wears a mask, including myself.

Safety? Go back and read what Beemer said; the insistance on masks has NOTHING whatsoever to do with image changing, increasing safety or anything else and EVERYTHING to do with profit motive: if masks are mandatory, we can sell more expensive systems. Period.

Let me ask this of all you safety conscious individuals. Do you change your lenses after each and every direct impact? Do you use a uv light to check for crazing and then immediately purchase a new $17 lens when you find some? If you want to be 'safe', forget the chin and cheek cover and follow the SAFETY instructions that came with your goggle system. Safety. bah!

***

Now on to those who keep blathering about multiple facial impacts, lost teeth, swollen lips and etc.

First of all, I took numerous lip and teeth hits; I even had one ball break on my upper teeth, spray into and clog up my nostrils, while the other half of the ball hit the back of my throat, causing me to choke: no air through the nose, no air through the mouth, choking and hacking while some idiot runs up, shoots me three more times and screams 'are you out now? are you out now?'

Conversly, I had a ball hit the holes in my facemask and shatter while I was mouth breathing after a long up hill run. Spray coated the entire inside of my mouth and throat, causing me to gag.

Difference in pain? 0. Difference in game play? 0.

Ooops, sorry. I forgot to mention that I can take a hit - and exchanged many bunkerings as the giver and receiver. Obviously, getting shot from up close does not bother me the way it apparently does so many others.

My conclusion about this whole issue is the following:

1. there will ALWAYS be people who insist on shoving their rules down other people's throats
2. those very same people will make up whatever arguments and justifications they think are necessary in order to put the stamp of officiality on their enforcements
3. no matter how you slice it, the insistence on facemasks is nothing more than a feel-good bandaid at best and a crutch for those who 'can't take a hit' at worst
4. paintball used to be about physically and mentally challening yourself and your friends in an environment that necessarily included the possibility of inflicting and receiving pain and inflicting or receiving minor injuries. Eliminating those elements may be good for 'growing' an outdoor activity, but please, give it another name, cause it just ain't paintball anymore

[DK1]

***

Now I turn my attention to the individual who stated that because the poll had a majority of votes in favor of mandatory facemasks that that absolutely means, without question, that requiring facemasks means its a safety concern.

Sorry pal, all your argument proves is that the majority of people who voted in this poll think so. Here's my latest poll: do you think that using internet polls as proof in an argument constitutes idiocy? Yes, I do. Therefore, since the majority said yes - you can draw your own conclusions...

How about I'll not base anything I say on what anyone else says... my opinion has nothing to do with the poll... work for you? As a disclaimer, this is all in effort for debate, nothing personal...

Did I not speak clearly? I do think that those people who use facemasks are wimps - is that clear enough? Or, to put a finer point on it, they can't hack it. Now let's be clear here: I think in the limited context of wearing or not wearing masks for paintball, wearing one is wimpiness. Does that mean I am indicting everyone here who wears a mask? No. Does it mean that I think that those who do are wimps all the time? No. What it means is that I think the process of wearing a mask implies wimpiness - for anyone who wears a mask, including myself.

I think that is stupid. I think it's a dumb comment. I get hit in the mask about 1/4 or 1/5 of the time, simply because that's one of the more commonly veiewable points on my person when I'm trying to shoot someone. I have seen someone get shot in the face, and I have no intention of receiving any injury while I'm playing this game. Just like I take precaution to wear a helmet when riding a bicycle down a mountain. Just like I don't wear dress shoes to go jogging in. Just like I wear my seat belt. I don't play sports to get injured, I play them to have fun. How does that make me a wimp? Because I don't want to have to pay for stitches? We're not talking chest protectors or padded head-gear here. We're talking about a plastic guard to keep the densest collections of nerve ending outside of your dangling participle from being pelted. The chances of tissue damage on your face is significantly higher than on the rest of your body. The process of wearing a mask doesn't imply wimpiness, it implies the intelligence to prevent injury.

Safety? Go back and read what Beemer said; the insistance on masks has NOTHING whatsoever to do with image changing, increasing safety or anything else and EVERYTHING to do with profit motive: if masks are mandatory, we can sell more expensive systems. Period.

Bull. While I'll agree that the requirement of masks may have to do with money, I think you're pegging the wrong greedy bunch of suits. If anything, it's insurance companies. They know that they can charge you more the more hazardous your conditions are. In order to keep from paying higher fees, industry people enforce rules. So, yeah, you can call it money if you like, but I don't think JT and Scott are to blame nearly as much as insurance companies and field owners who pay those costs. Not to mention, the entire thing is derived from the fact that there is a significantly greater chance of costly injury to the face in this sport than any other part of the body. Why didn't they start off with mandatory jock-straps? Because the chances of getting hit there are orders of magnitude less than face shots...

Let me ask this of all you safety conscious individuals. Do you change your lenses after each and every direct impact? Do you use a uv light to check for crazing and then immediately purchase a new $17 lens when you find some? If you want to be 'safe', forget the chin and cheek cover and follow the SAFETY instructions that came with your goggle system. Safety. bah!

Because I realize that those particular reccomendations are minimum standards, and most of the time, our equipment surpasses that capability. I do replace my lenses when I inspect them (and I do) if I see what I feel is damage that might comprimise their effectiveness. The simple answer here is, people in general do not feel that the risks involved with lenses mandate this practice. I don't see many lenses shattering, thus this doesn't scare me, because I feel it is improbable.

Now on to those who keep blathering about multiple facial impacts, lost teeth, swollen lips and etc.

First of all, I took numerous lip and teeth hits; I even had one ball break on my upper teeth, spray into and clog up my nostrils, while the other half of the ball hit the back of my throat, causing me to choke: no air through the nose, no air through the mouth, choking and hacking while some idiot runs up, shoots me three more times and screams 'are you out now? are you out now?'

Conversly, I had a ball hit the holes in my facemask and shatter while I was mouth breathing after a long up hill run. Spray coated the entire inside of my mouth and throat, causing me to gag.

Difference in pain? 0. Difference in game play? 0.

Great, nice stories, but they don't make any point. So you've been hit in the face. W00, you don't care about it. So what? Your experience doesn't cover everything.I've swallowed a bit of paint fill myself when inhaling... it sucks. I've had my foot crushed by an outrigger from a 26,000 lb truck and went back to work the next day. I've torn ligaments in my foot from sports. That doesn't mean anything. I don't care to have those things happen to me again. Been there, done that. I'll do what I can to avoid those situations again. Doesn't make me weak... makes me not dumb.

As for that not making a difference... you honestly feel no difference at all in getting pegged in the face than getting hit in the chest or arm? If you don't... maybe you should go see a doctor, because you've taken some nerve damage somewhere.

Ooops, sorry. I forgot to mention that I can take a hit - and exchanged many bunkerings as the giver and receiver. Obviously, getting shot from up close does not bother me the way it apparently does so many others.

Eh, so can many. I've played quite a few games of "I can't take it anymore" myself... heck, that's how I started palying. Nothing like a bunch of prison guards in riot helmets shooting the heck out of each other... That doesn't make paying without a mask safe. Getting shot in the butt, lovehandles, and chest is completely different from getting popped in the face.

My conclusion about this whole issue is the following:

1. there will ALWAYS be people who insist on shoving their rules down other people's throats
2. those very same people will make up whatever arguments and justifications they think are necessary in order to put the stamp of officiality on their enforcements
3. no matter how you slice it, the insistence on facemasks is nothing more than a feel-good bandaid at best and a crutch for those who 'can't take a hit' at worst
4. paintball used to be about physically and mentally challening yourself and your friends in an environment that necessarily included the possibility of inflicting and receiving pain and inflicting or receiving minor injuries. Eliminating those elements may be good for 'growing' an outdoor activity, but please, give it another name, cause it just ain't paintball anymore

1. True
2. False
3. False
4. False

There are real possibilities of damage from not wearing masks. You could be deafened. You could have tearing of tissue necessitating stiches. You could require facial or dental surgery. Paintball has always included some measure of pain, injury however, has never been a goal. Maybe it was for you, in which case I'm glad I never played with you. That's the same attitude of people who take cheap shots in basketball games. That's the attitude of people who go for the knees when tackeling someone. I don't care to be part of that game. I've been injured enough by work... no need to do it in my spare time.

DK1 "the mask wearing wimp"

[rabidchihauhau]

Finally, an intelligent response. Geez, I've been waiting long enough. (Beemer & Tyger excepted, of course)

Let's tackle the wimp thing first.

Do you care if I think you're a wimp for wearing a facemask, or do you think I'm stupid for thinking what I think?

I sure as heck hope you don't give a rat's fundament about what I think. My opinion is my opinion and should not influence the decisions you make for yourself and your own personal comfort and safety.

Likewise, I should not have to kowtow to levels of safety and comfort that I do not feel are necessary for myself.

Since most people (including you) seemed to have missed my diatribe on insurance, I'll reiterate it in short:

Paintball specific insurance providers base their safety requirements on past history, current experience and the ASTM Paintball SubCommittee standards.

Non-paintball specific insurance providers (who cover sports and sporting event related coverages) do not base their safety requirements on the same thing, they base them on an actuarial assessment of the inherent risks.

Since it has been amply demonstrated that eye protection is necessary in order to prevent the most high-risk injuries, both require paintball specific eye protection. Paintball insurance providers follow the ASTM facemask guideline, non-paintball providers do not; in obtaining coverage for my event, this issue was discussed and dismissed by the provider as something that they need not concern themselves with. Reputable company, very familiar with how to assess their exposure when providing coverage, etc.

I therefore draw the conclusion that the incidence of 'insurance-cost-raising' injuries associated with not wearing facemasks is of such a low order of magnitude that allowing people to play without masks (should THEY so desire) will not materially affect the number of resulting injuries and will therefore not affect the cost of insurance coverage.

With that said, the insistence on masks by the rule makers must obviously derive from some other need - such as image, profit motive, etc. All well and good, but not an argument that I will accept when it comes to convincing me to do something I would rather not do.

DK1 said "As for that not making a difference... you honestly feel no difference at all in getting pegged in the face than getting hit in the chest or arm? If you don't... maybe you should go see a doctor, because you've taken some nerve damage somewhere."

I was not discussing levels of pain. I was stating that the pain I experience from a face hit is not enough to discourage me from going maskless. I have an admitted high threshold for pain tolerance. I often get a rush from pain. I engage in other activities who's objective is to inflict pain in order to get an endorphin rush. Maybe I do have nerve damage somewhere, but its not in my face.....Before bb's and dirtbomb wars there was Dart Wars. Yes, my friends and I used to throw darts at each other. It hurt when you got stuck, but not enough to make us stop playing. Stupid, yes. We shoulda had eye protection.....

[GoatBoy]

Since most people (including you) seemed to have missed my diatribe on insurance, I'll reiterate it in short:

Some of us didn't miss it; it's just not very good.

Paintball specific insurance providers base their safety requirements on past history, current experience and the ASTM Paintball SubCommittee standards.

Non-paintball specific insurance providers (who cover sports and sporting event related coverages) do not base their safety requirements on the same thing, they base them on an actuarial assessment of the inherent risks.

Since it has been amply demonstrated that eye protection is necessary in order to prevent the most high-risk injuries, both require paintball specific eye protection. Paintball insurance providers follow the ASTM facemask guideline, non-paintball providers do not; in obtaining coverage for my event, this issue was discussed and dismissed by the provider as something that they need not concern themselves with. Reputable company, very familiar with how to assess their exposure when providing coverage, etc.

I therefore draw the conclusion that the incidence of 'insurance-cost-raising' injuries associated with not wearing facemasks is of such a low order of magnitude that allowing people to play without masks (should THEY so desire) will not materially affect the number of resulting injuries and will therefore not affect the cost of insurance coverage.

This is a very long diatribe which, in the end, reads like this:

Some really smart guy told me not to worry about it. I take his word for it as proof.

Insurance providers aren't infallible. That's why policies change. They might currently not think it raises costs because they're protected under common sense; people just aren't going out there without facemasks. What your provider might currently see is a low incidence of people who would be dumb enough to go out without a facemask in the first place, which then translates into a low incidence of those resulting injuries. Who's to say a few idiots, and a few nuisance lawsuits later, they might change their minds?

In short, I do not look to the insurance companies for wisdom. They're scummy, and they do not have your best interests in mind. They run in the same circles with all the people who would force their rules upon you; your specific provider just hasn't gotten there on this one point -- yet.

With that said, the insistence on masks by the rule makers must obviously derive from some other need - such as image, profit motive, etc. All well and good, but not an argument that I will accept when it comes to convincing me to do something I would rather not do.

Did you ever stop to wonder why people haven't listened to you for 21+ years?

You take so long to get the point; a point which can simply be made on general principle. It's like you're constantly unloading baggage.

[rabidchihauhau]

'some really smart guy told me'

wrong. I did research - lots of it. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but I'm talking real world situation here.

Oh, and btw -lots of people did and do listen to me over te past 21 years - its one of the reasons we even have an industry.

Kind of sucks, huh? Knowing that you can play paintball at least in part because of a person like me.

[DK1]

Finally, an intelligent response. Geez, I've been waiting long enough. (Beemer & Tyger excepted, of course)

Let's tackle the wimp thing first.

Do you care if I think you're a wimp for wearing a facemask, or do you think I'm stupid for thinking what I think?

I sure as heck hope you don't give a rat's fundament about what I think. My opinion is my opinion and should not influence the decisions you make for yourself and your own personal comfort and safety.

I don't care, and I also think that it's a stupid opinion.

Likewise, I should not have to kowtow to levels of safety and comfort that I do not feel are necessary for myself.

Since most people (including you) seemed to have missed my diatribe on insurance, I'll reiterate it in short:

Paintball specific insurance providers base their safety requirements on past history, current experience and the ASTM Paintball SubCommittee standards.

Non-paintball specific insurance providers (who cover sports and sporting event related coverages) do not base their safety requirements on the same thing, they base them on an actuarial assessment of the inherent risks.

Since it has been amply demonstrated that eye protection is necessary in order to prevent the most high-risk injuries, both require paintball specific eye protection. Paintball insurance providers follow the ASTM facemask guideline, non-paintball providers do not; in obtaining coverage for my event, this issue was discussed and dismissed by the provider as something that they need not concern themselves with. Reputable company, very familiar with how to assess their exposure when providing coverage, etc.

I therefore draw the conclusion that the incidence of 'insurance-cost-raising' injuries associated with not wearing facemasks is of such a low order of magnitude that allowing people to play without masks (should THEY so desire) will not materially affect the number of resulting injuries and will therefore not affect the cost of insurance coverage.

With that said, the insistence on masks by the rule makers must obviously derive from some other need - such as image, profit motive, etc. All well and good, but not an argument that I will accept when it comes to convincing me to do something I would rather not do.

Non-paintball specific insurance companies would be idiots if they didn't take past history and current experience into account when they develop their risk measurements. And I guess this point is fuzzy to me, the insurance company you talked to, they knew the difference between just eye protection and a full mask? So, they said it was absolutely no problem to wear JUST goggles, and no mask? I would really like to talk to them then, because I'd say that their actuaries dropped the ball there.

Secondly, your logic at then end isn't fully developed. There are other possibilities than image and profit motive. Have you ever considered that possibly the "rulemakers" indeed feel that playing without a mask isn't safe? They might enforce the rule out of sheer concience sake... maybe. Again, I also don't think whatever insurance company you talked to did their asessment correctly, but that's my opinion against theirs. You've also got to realize, they might not desire the same safety level of a paintball specific insurer. Since they are larger, they can offset a lot of costs with their business elsewhere... that can make a huge difference on premiums, especially if you understand how property/causalty insurance companies make their money. It's not on premiums by the way...

DK1 said "As for that not making a difference... you honestly feel no difference at all in getting pegged in the face than getting hit in the chest or arm? If you don't... maybe you should go see a doctor, because you've taken some nerve damage somewhere."

I was not discussing levels of pain. I was stating that the pain I experience from a face hit is not enough to discourage me from going maskless. I have an admitted high threshold for pain tolerance. I often get a rush from pain. I engage in other activities who's objective is to inflict pain in order to get an endorphin rush. Maybe I do have nerve damage somewhere, but its not in my face.....Before bb's and dirtbomb wars there was Dart Wars. Yes, my friends and I used to throw darts at each other. It hurt when you got stuck, but not enough to make us stop playing. Stupid, yes. We shoulda had eye protection.....

Again, I guess what you see as "tough," I just see as not so smart. If you feel like playing without a mask, fine. But don't expect to on any field that I have any control over.

DK1

[Beemer]

Who what where why when

Hey where did Tyger go?

"Satisfied? (probably not, but then Beemers an old skooler and knows how to deal with a little frustration...)"

Used to, but in todays paintball world I need meds and therapy to help me deal with it.

Hey Rabid first you used ASTM then you said " ASTM Paintball SubCommittee standards."

How many paintball specific insurers are there? I probably missed something but my search kept comming up with American PaintBall Ins. Good old Bob Mcguire[sp]

Every lens I see says to replace lens after a direct hit of 10 or 15 ft. which is it?

After 15 plus yrs they cant come up with something better that I dont have to worry about changing after I get a close hit. I have seen and have had them fail. Im real anal about my lens. 3 sets. If I take a close hit I grab my backups. Lets see 1 lens a month at 25$ times 8 months thats 200$ yr x 10yrs = 2000$. Played hard and pro/am tourny for 10yrs. Dam never did get a gog sponsor. Have gotten paint in my eye before to, you DONT want that. Still have BOTH eyes with 20/20 though,[priceless]

So how much would you pay for a lens with a 2,3,5yr life span? 1,2,300 dollars. Ill take 2 right now. Close range 300fps whats gonna change next? and why.

ASTM Paintball Subcommittee what a joke. 41 people in the industry put up these safety standards then blow them off. The gog standards are out dated for todays game[why does dye say tested to twice the standard?] and with the e cheat boards it is clear the gun standards are a blow off. I have the astm gun and gog standards if anybody wants them. 41 people on a committee that is supposed to care. Who are they??

Bud Orr is the chairman of the committee. Can we do industry politics now.

Tyger..... can we do a follow the MONEY thing?

Somebody didnt quit the tourny scene, they got pushed out with politics. Safety and standards, 3000,4500psi, money and market share, we dont need you go away now[see ya]

No force feed warp but wait the Halo aint force feed[whaaaaaaaaaaaaat]

This a blatant example of money and market share before making sense and industry longevity.