Wats The Real Hype

[AGD]

And here I thought we were finally getting somewhere with all this.....

AGD

[Blazestorm]

I believe the mag has a dump-chamber that opens part-way through the bolt cycling forward so your statement of "all guns fire closed-bolt" is not true.

Hold a cocker next to a mag, shoot them and try to tell me they shoot the same. They don't.

I don't feel like arguing anymore, The trajectory is different, and arguing this crap over the internet isn't proving anything.

OMG LAST POST K

[tony3]

I know this has been talked about, but I'm still wondering, wouldn't a ball with spin travel more accurate, then one with no spin, because of wind or something. Similar to fast balls and knuckle balls in baseball. I don't really know, I usually stay out of these talks, because accuracy is the stupidest thing in paintball. Get a decent barrel, paint that matches the bore or is smaller, and is high quality, get a gun with low kick, consistent regulator and tank, and you'll have a nice gun.

[Blazestorm]

I have the best idea of all.

Get a gun you're comfortable with and spend your money PLAYING the sport.

[Butterfingers]

Blaze...

Trust me its physycally impossible for 2 identical balls with no rotation induced lift shooting the same velocity to travel at diffrent trajectories or ranges.

This applies in ANY environment as long as the environment in which the 2 projectiles are compared are identical.

It applies in a real world situation becuase the density of air is relatively constant when comparing 2 guns as is gravity.

If the gun is shooting the same velocity at the same angle of deparure unless the gun modifies the density of air or has anti-gravity properties... it is impossible to given 2 identical projectiles for one gun to differ in range or trajectory.

I went through 4 years of college learning about this stuff. Tape an extra 2 inches of aluminum on top of your mag then shoot it it will magically appear to shoot flatter. Its all perception.



I have tried your test... back in the days of modified paintball.

We lined up 2 guns barrels level and sighted them in. I used an I beam level to make sure that the barrels were on level planes. I checked the entire length of the barrel using the level to make sure there were no angular diffrences.

To our surprise the cocker seemed to shoot flatter. However we then chronoed it in...

The mag was shooting 265 whereas the cocker was shooting near 315!

When we brought both velocities down to around 290 on both guns sighted down the barrel and shot them both. To me they looked IDENTICAL.

To prove that it wasent our eyes we put a board around 100 feet out we moved the board in and out so the guns would produce a grouping in the center.

With the barrels lined up both guns shot near identical groups next to each other.

Moral of the story...

If your cocker seems to shoot further or flatter WATSON check your velocity!

[Blazestorm]

Lies... stop proving me wrong it makes me feel sad.

Cockers shoot farther... because the says so!

[FallNAngel]

I believe the mag has a dump-chamber that opens part-way through the bolt cycling forward so your statement of "all guns fire closed-bolt" is not true.

Technically, neither does open bolt then... as the bolt is moving (which is linked to the hammer), the hammer is pushing on the valve. It may not move far when it's pushing on the valve, but it's still doing so.

As for closed bolt not acting the same as open bolt... alright, the bolt is stationary for ~3-6ms Not a huge difference.

In either case, any spin the bolt design may cause will be completely nullified by the barrel. When you can perform a much better test, such as in a closed environment where there's no wind, same velocity, same height, level, paint barrel match, same barrel, etc, then maybe I'll be interested in taking a look.

Tony: Yes, to a point. It depends on how much spin and in which direction. Too much spin in any direction is generally a bad thing. No spin, can cause inaccuracy though.

[xXHavokXx]

We did a bench test, a matrix won. Closed/Open has no effect on accuracy. My angel is as accurate as my cocker was or my dm4 is.



Your teammate needs to do some foot work and go shoot every gun he can from now till he buys one. That's how you decide what the best gun is.

[Setzer]

And here I thought we were finally getting somewhere with all this.....

AGD

I loved that thread in Deep Blue AGD. I just wished I was part of the community back when it started so I could of really participated. I thank you very much for that, and you did show many people out there the truth. The problem is, the people that start these arguments havn't read it, or don't understand it, while those of us that have, don't need to bring it up because there's not much else to discuss

[FallNAngel]

We did a bench test, a matrix won. Closed/Open has no effect on accuracy.

... if Closed/Open bolt has no effect on accuracy, how do you figure a particular gun won?

[Blazestorm]

Duh it's a matrix dude we all know those use the same Smart Parts patented technology of "Seal-Forward Technology" which makes it the most accurate gun on the market! Duh!1

My cocker I'm building will shoot farther... It's a ninja cocker... I mean really... why wouldn't it shoot farther?

[xXHavokXx]

... if Closed/Open bolt has no effect on accuracy, how do you figure a particular gun won?

The grouping for the matrix was better..

[paint magnet]

Well under rapid fire you can pretty much throw out any differences between open and closed bolt guns. They are both moving alot of paint really fast so there is no time for a paintball to get "settled" in. And really, how much paintball do you play when your not shooting atleast 10bps.

A lot, considering my gun only holds 8 rounds

With that out of the way, I'd like to say a few things. I'm sorry if I am reposting anything, but it was not intentional.

- Any spin imparted on the ball by the bolt is negated by the barrel. Remember the tests AGD did on rifled barrels? You need to get the ball spinning at several thousand rpm coming out of the muzzle in order for it to have an effect on flight or trajectory. The bolt, at best, doesn't even spin the ball a full rotation going into the barrel.

- Just because two markers (i.e., an Autococker and an Automag) have the same barrel (for argument's sake we'll say a Dye Boomstick), it doesn't make it a fair test. The Boomstick* might be a great barrel, and it might work great on one gun, but suck on the other. This is because most barrels are mass produced, and to make it for a different gun, all that is changed is the threading. According to Glenn Palmer (who has yet to give me reason to doubt anything he has said), it is very important to match the barrel to the gun's valving, moreso even than matching the paint to the bore of the barrel. So, in order to have a fair test, I think you need to have the same barrel, but one that is matched to each particular gun's valving. (such as a PPS matched brass barrel)

- You should have the same air system on both markers. This makes sense, but again may not be quite accurate due to the fact that some regulators / air systems may perform better on certain guns than on others due to airflow, pressure requirements, etc., so I'm not really sure what should be done here.

- In order to have accurate results, you would have to fire several different brands of paint through each gun, and should use the one that shot the best with that particular marker for the test. Even if it's expensive, high quality tournament grade paint, some guns seem to hate certain brands.

- Physics don't seem to care what you think or how much money you've put into your gun. My Nelspot 007 is not exactly the pinnacle of modern paintball technology, yet with it's 4" (I think?), rusted steel barrel, disposable, unregulated power source, and 17-year old seals/orings, it still shoots better than almost any gun I have ever owned, including Autocockers, Angels, and Automags. (the exceptions being a PPS Stroker, P-68 AT, etc.)

- Besides, we all know cockers shoot better. (It's the elves)

my .02 on the subject.

[than205]

The grouping for the matrix was better..

Like many here will say, that means its consistancy is better.