Drawback to having the RTP (X)...

[RRfireblade]

well rr the rt is still a mech gun. it says mech only tourney so why exclude a certain type of gun?

could you make my rt pro a ramper if i sent it to you?

That's a fair question and your right. Perhaps 'Mechanical' alone is not a good enough distinction.

Mechanicals can ramp(as I mentioned), shoot full auto and do a number of the same things that make an Electronic gun illegal. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

My tourny, My line......I guess.

Stock class,Modified Stock,Super Stock and Open class. And you thought 'Pump' play was pump play.

You'd have to break down Mech play the same way. I'm guessing RT's would be somewhere around super stock and open class. IDk.......gotta start somewhere.



As for your marker,I 'could' but I can't......I don't own the I.P., Sorry.

[RRfireblade]

Gee RR what if I only ran 600input pressure to my RT.[oh ya might as well just run a classic then] if your real fast you can get 12bps on that.

To bad todays guns have taken the human speed[skill] factor out of the game.

All I hear today is AGD guns are slower then everybody else. Why is that?

A) If you can only pull 12 on a classic valve and you can pull more on a RT than you've made my point,Thanks

B) AGD's guns are consider slow when comparing 'Legal' mech to uncapped electro. Can't really aregue that I don't think. Then take an older software Emag w/ no buffering (which is the vast majority of most peoples experience) and a 16bps cap which transltes to ~13bps max and whatcha got? Sloooooooow.

C) Most of todays new breed have never shot a truly legal electro.They expect 15bps just by thinking that fast.........and the have LCD's to back it up.

[punkncat]

In the ad for the X valve it states "world's fastest mechanical marker".

I play with this marker most of the time. I don't whine and cry when I have to play against (insert fast bouncing/ramping electro) markers. I deal with it and continue to play my game , and well most of the time.

What has me pissed is that I am at a "disadvantage" all the time in tourneys and open play in ROF. And now when I get to be the one with the slight upper hand then some bogus anti RT rule is put into effect. And the only reason my marker falls under the ruling is because it says RT on the valve. Any other guy can register and play with an X valve and not a single head will turn.

I have a good cocker to use. And I am not scared to play on a more level field. But I will say this , if buddy (field owner) wants to pick straws about a mech tourney then he damn sure needs to do it for all tourneys in respect to insane fast electros.

Cap eveyone at 13BPS and be done with it. Thats fair...right?


Oh and thanks Rouge......

[RRfireblade]

List the plenty please. Id like to know which *plenty* you are referring to that are within the 1 shot 1 pull(and realease) rule and yet are not legal.

Come on now...you been around long enough. Rocking triggers,side pull trigger,triggers that pull in a non linear fashion.Email Bill MIlls and ask him what goes beyond the 1 for 1 rule.

The ULE Pro is a mechanical marker. Nothing hypocritical about that.

My point is, I feel a reactive trigger is an unfair advantage against non-reactive triggers. Don't really care who makes the ttigger. My ethics are not attached to a brand,only my conscience.

If you read what punkncat said, and I quote "If it just didn't have the RT pro over the X I could play with it , even though its the same valve".

Technicallity...........if tht makes you feel better......fine.

Making it easier doesnt make it an unfair advantage or artificial.

It sure does.......sometimes. A full blown RT tippmann is 1 for 1.....it doesn't fire more than one shot on it's own.It requires pressure on the trigger for each shot to fire.Pressure on the trigger=a pull.Your finger definately moves back and forth for each shot.The RT just makes it 'easier' to do.

[RRfireblade]

Now youve made my point with trigger pull weight. Its obvious that a marker with a lighter pull will make it easier to attain higher ROF's than the same marker with a heavier pull. Artifical? No.

Or how about CO2 vs. Compressed Air recharge rates. Is that to be considered an artifical ROF enhancement too?

A) Except an RT isn't faster because of a lighter weighted trigger.

Stock class,Modified Stock,Super Stock and Open class. And you thought 'Pump' play was pump play. You'd have to break down Mech play the same way. I'm guessing RT's would be somewhere around super stock and open class. IDk.......gotta start somewhere

Now you know why they do it that way.

[Lohman446]

I have to agree with RR on this one.

I keep an X-valved mechanical mag around, and I had to put a ULT trigger kit in it to make it 1 shot 1 pull, as in I would not have gotten it past a competent chrono judge without it.

When it rains at a tournament and I start to see mechanicals come out, I because frankly, I have a noticeable advantage over any other "legal" mechanical marker, most Tippman RTs are not going to make it on field.

As for complaining about ramping/bouncing/etc those are not legal, and should be pulled from tournaments. For the record, the only markers I have seen illegal out of the box were the AGD E-mag with hybrid mode available, and a few E-bladed cockers. My Shocker was ridiculously legal out of the box - I think the pull was longer than my X-valved mechanical as a matter of fact. Its been fixed since then

The point is, if you are having a mech only tournament.. they are trying to even the grounds, and the super mech mags, are not even. I think the field owner is an idiot or a jerk for allowing the X-valve and not the RT valve... but I'm sure AGD didn't just decide to rename them away from teh RT valve for no reason.

It just seems that we are willing to point in regards to other companies attempts to "push" the rules. Pushing of the rules is innovation, recall the controversy around HPA... the quick changer (Six Pack), the warp feed (force feed)....

[RRfireblade]

Come on, youve been around long enough to know better. A pull is a directional pressure.

Sure......but your just trying to split hairs. Directional pressure.....for how long? At what pressure? At what length of pull? Pick what ever side of the fence you like better, it's still splitting hairs over the same thing.

The Tippman RT, or a Reactive Mag does not require a pull(or directional pressure) by your finger once it goes reactive.

I disagree on that one.Except for extreme 'sweetspotting' (like 1200psi input or the like) there is definatlely movement of the trigger pull and return.That's the basis of how it works.Especially the Tippy RT.It will beat your fingers to a pulp with the speed and power of the movement by the end of the day.Neither of them will go full auto without any trigger movement....if so.....they would never stop shooting. It's not like a sear release on a blowback where you could just holf the trigger all the way back and have full auto fire.

BUt in this case, the organizer will let punkcat use the exact same valve as long as it doesnt say RT on the side.

True....supposedly....but only because of ignorance on his part. I'm sure if he knew what the difference was between the 2,the X would be out also.

Besides that.....IIRC, and Tom can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I believe that since the inception of the Original Automag RT.....subsequent RT designations stand for "ReTro", not reactive trigger.

[fire1811]

if they are not allowing a regular RT in a mech only tournament dont ever expect the mecanical hAir trigger to be allowed.

[slade]

I disagree on that one.Except for extreme 'sweetspotting' (like 1200psi input or the like) there is definatlely movement of the trigger pull and return.That's the basis of how it works.Especially the Tippy RT.It will beat your fingers to a pulp with the speed and power of the movement by the end of the day.Neither of them will go full auto without any trigger movement....if so.....they would never stop shooting. It's not like a sear release on a blowback where you could just holf the trigger all the way back and have full auto fire.

i think that he is saying that a regular trigger requires aplication and release of pressure for each shot. a Tippmann RT only requires aplication of pressure for it to shoot continuously.

[RRfireblade]

i think that he is saying that a regular trigger requires aplication and release of pressure for each shot. a Tippmann RT only requires aplication of pressure for it to shoot continuously.

I know. I was saying that the trigger on the Tippy does move back and forth for each shot even with full reactivity.It only requires you to maintain pressure but your finger is moving along with the trigger.that's the assistance I'm talking about weather it be slight like a 'normal' RT mag or extreme like a sweetspot condition.

[RRfireblade]

Interesting, I thought you were splitting hairs. I dont have to pick a side of the fence....if it doesnt bounce, and isnt electronic---its a mechanical. Just that simple

Try and keep comments in context...it's a bit confusing when you mix subjects and responses together.

Splitting hairs was clearly refering to what constitutes a full trigger pull, not whether somethings runs on batteries or not.

Until you apply your logic evenly and fairly to ALL markers and their upgrades, your rule is unfair and prejudiced.

I do. ANY upgrade that allow the marker,as part of it's regular function, to apply a force to the trigger in order to assist your finger in making a complete stroke should be considered illegal. I think that should be quite clear.

LOL...I didnt know there was an extreme and non-extreme sweetspot. Thats a new one

Oh,'cause I thought there was a difference between putting 800psi and 1000 psi into a Mag. I guess in both cases they 'sweetspot' equally. Silly me. Guess Zman was wasting his time using 2000.

Youd argue that your finger is pulling the trigger every shot on a bounce/RT/Sweetspot marker. Id argue that it isnt.

You can have your opinion on that. I'm simply saying that besides the marker contributing to the force of the trigger return,which simply over powers the muscle force exerted by your finger faster than you can react to that force,there is little difference in the sequence of events when using an RT trigger.

Your finger is most certainly pulling every shot of a non-bouncing XValve. And follows both the letter and the intent of the 1 shot 1 pull rule and should be legal.

And lastly......

As I have stated from the very begining and in this post, if the marker when being used in it's normal condition,is capable of applying a dynamic force onto to the trigger mechanism itself, that assists the user in attaining a ROF that he could not otherwise attain without that force being applied....it should be considered illegal.....IMO.

Thank you.........Good Night Folks........

[FallNAngel]

There are plenty of trigger styles that have come along that are not legal despite that fact that they meet the 1 for 1 rule.

Can you name some?

[RRfireblade]

Can you name some?

It's not really important to the discussion here but for every way you can image to fire a paintball marker, there have been styles of triggers.There's a reason you really don't see many extreme variations around anymore.(besides shapes and curves) I'm really not interested in going off in that tangent,there's really no point there.

The bottom line is there are more specific guidelines to what what is generally considered a legal trigger set up. It goes beyond the simple basis of 1 pull, one shot. That is mearly the minimum requirement and a starting point. What is attempted to be controlled with the rules that govern triggers and trigger pulls, have to do with continuing the 'spirit' of a generally accepted method of firing a paintball marker and doing so(along with a comparable ROF)with out assistance from the marker itself.

In recent times,unfortunately and mostly do to the high amount of money invested in sponsorships,advertising and other monetary incentives,those guidelines have often been blurred. Perhaps to the point that they may never fully be realized again.Such is the reason for re-newed interest in mechancal and pump styles of play. Hopefully to get back to the roots of the game, for some, and to get away from the cheating and general unsportsman like play for others and/or both. (The SP issue is helping also )



Ultimately this entire discussion as it relates to this thread comes down to personal opinion.

You either think that.........

A Reactive Trigger System, by adding a dynamic output from the marker which applies a force directly on the trigger mechanism in order to create a trigger action that can not be created or reproduced by the user themself, assists them in reaching a ROF higher than would otherwise be attained with out that assistance......

Or ......


You don't.

How much that assistance actually is....is irrelevant. It's a yes or no answer.

I've stated my opinion.......and stand behind it.

Be truly honest with yourself and answer it.

That's all the debate that really needs to be done.

[Wc Keep]

ok guys this is getting a little heated so im gonna step in and say cant we all get along?

rogue how can you get a classic valve to sweetspot at 800?

but guys the problem is that there needs to be a better definition of reactive. the tippmann rt really is what killed it for the rt mag. there really is a safety issue there.

[RRfireblade]

ok guys this is getting a little heated so im gonna step in and say cant we all get along?

rogue how can you get a classic valve to sweetspot at 800?

but guys the problem is that there needs to be a better definition of reactive. the tippmann rt really is what killed it for the rt mag. there really is a safety issue there.

No heat here, just trying to follow this crazy wandering path........quotes getting applied to un related comments or previously made points.Not sure what's up there.

Feels kinda like hitting a moving target when each point keeps getting twisted and applied to another.

Anywho........

I 'thought' we were trying to discuss whether an RT trigger gave an un-fair advantage over a non-reactive trigger and should be allowed to compete equally. I think it does give that advantage and I think it shouldn't be allow to compete equally.

Somehow it keeps getting turned around in directions aimed at no point.....for some unknown reason.

I guess I'll just bow out here, since I've stated everything I needed to state.....like half a dozen times already.

Anyone who wishes can go back,read it and apply it how ever they wish.


Thanks all....bed time now.