Small Video On Preset vs Adjustable Tanks

[trains are bad]

I am not sure, but I think this is why the DYnaflow tanks increase output psi as they get lower on air. To equal out the recharge rate of the tank dropping below 2kpsi. I am not a tech for Centerflag, so I could be very wrong here. That is what I came to logically.

It's not on purpose. All regs output varies opposite that of the input. Unless it is a double regulator design. The one gripe I have with the dynaflow is the noticeable difference in trigger reactivty based on the tank pressure. I have to keep my tank topped off or worry about gettin dq'd when my tank pressure gets low and I get a bounce or two.

[RTDynaflow]

It's not on purpose. All regs output varies opposite that of the input. Unless it is a double regulator design. The one gripe I have with the dynaflow is the noticeable difference in trigger reactivty based on the tank pressure. I have to keep my tank topped off or worry about gettin dq'd when my tank pressure gets low and I get a bounce or two.

??? Educate me. Regs vary opposite that of the input... Unless I am reading it wrong, or comprehending it wrong, wouldn't that mean the reg would increase steadily as the pressure dropped? My Dynaflow does not do that... It is more of an instant type thing. Well, over aboput 400 psi it gains about 100-200 and tops off. I could be wrong about it though, never tested it for sure. Secondly, how is this something all regs do? I would assume just the opposite. As pressure drops inside the tank the output drops as well... All of my screw in stay rather consistant on the output, untill input pressure is below that of the desired output.

It would seem as if this feature was designed into the tank. I am going to get m,ine filled tomorrow and then bleed it off and test when the output increase and by how much per psi dropped. When it stops as well. It just seems that with the product CF put out here, they would overlook/allow something like this unintentionally.

Although, I have never looked at the Dynaflow design and exactly how it works. So, I am probably very wrong here. I will have to look this stuff up tonight. It just strikes me very odd.

[the electrician]

he's talking about inverse pressure variations. at high rof, some regs will get an inverse pressure fluctuation. as the pressure in the tank goes down, the output can fluctuate up.

but as far as that goes, cheaper regs will fluctuate high when a tank is filled also.

there's an equation to figure that decelerating flow out of a tank as the pressure goes down, but being that it's not critical flow all the time, it get's pretty hairy.

higher pressure air moves at a higher velocity. I've done some tests with the classic valve also. basically same results, but not as dramatic. increasing the input into the classic valve increased it's recharge capability. I had it cycling 21 cps @ 2000 psi input .

[RTDynaflow]

he's talking about inverse pressure variations. at high rof, some regs will get an inverse pressure fluctuation. as the pressure in the tank goes down, the output can fluctuate up.

but as far as that goes, cheaper regs will fluctuate high when a tank is filled also.

there's an equation to figure that decelerating flow out of a tank as the pressure goes down, but being that it's not critical flow all the time, it get's pretty hairy.

higher pressure air moves at a higher velocity. I've done some tests with the classic valve also. basically same results, but not as dramatic. increasing the input into the classic valve increased it's recharge capability. I had it cycling 21 cps @ 2000 psi input .

True. What I was understanding him saying, the Dynaflow was not designed to give higher output below 2k, but it is a feature of all regs. Not sure if you are familiar with the Dynaflow, but at adds about 100-200 psi from below 2kish on down to the point you get below your current output. Not just on rapid fire, but anytime. The psi climes up fairly fast. From what I hear, it was designed this way to compensate for decreased intank pressure. That way the the reg can sustain the same amount of air/sec. IMO, this is a poorly thought out feature. It causes some bad issues on some guns. I.E. RT valves.

I am not positive on this, as I didn't get any of this directly from CF.

[FallNAngel]

We chose hybrid mode as neither of us is very good at walking the stock 2 finger trigger and the hybrid bounce allows you to see how well the tank's reg does at high a ROF.

Although it's nice that it shows a comparison, I have two requests
1. Show it again with the maxflo at 800psi. Yes, I know you said the point was that you get an adjustable reg because you can generally run it higher than 800... I'm interested in seeing the difference in recharge rate between the two tanks though
2. Show the gun with the Crossfire tank on it walking it in e-mode... get someone you can pull at a decent rate if you have to. I'm interested in seeing if someone can outshoot the tank on an X-mag in semi. Obviously it can be done in hybrid mode... but how many fields allow you to use that?

[RTDynaflow]

Although it's nice that it shows a comparison, I have two requests
1. Show it again with the maxflo at 800psi. Yes, I know you said the point was that you get an adjustable reg because you can generally run it higher than 800... I'm interested in seeing the difference in recharge rate between the two tanks though
2. Show the gun with the Crossfire tank on it walking it in e-mode... get someone you can pull at a decent rate if you have to. I'm interested in seeing if someone can outshoot the tank on an X-mag in semi. Obviously it can be done in hybrid mode... but how many fields allow you to use that?

1. Brilliant I would love to see this as well.

2. A lot - not a lot of tournies allow it though. still want to see this one also.

PS You nor cal guys are by far my favorite posters! Always soemthing helpful/interesting. Kudos!

[FallNAngel]

Hybrid mode is fine... but if the player is going to sweetspot the trigger and basically get full auto, I'm definately going to have a little talk with the refs and manager of the field.

[RTDynaflow]

Hybrid mode is fine... but if the player is going to sweetspot the trigger and basically get full auto, I'm definately going to have a little talk with the refs and manager of the field.

This is what kind of erks me. People will complain about sweetspotting a mag, and how it is so illegal for tournies and doesn't comply with the no FA rules at the field, then the same person pulls out his timmy, or ramping DM4, and empties a halo v35 in the chrono area in 5 seconds...

So, apparently a mag capped at around 24bps, is worse then a ramping DM4, that is hgitting somewhere in the mid 30s? WTH? The entire point of hybrid mode is the sweetspotting. That was the entire point of the original RT back in the day... It is far less dangerous then a timmy with ridiculous bounce, yet no one seems to mind those.. My RT stops when I release the trigger, your (figuratively) timmy doesn't. Being anal about sweetspotting erks me. Sure, it's not legal, but at a rec field... common.

As far as the test is concerned...

[Z-man]

...a mag capped at around 24bps, is worse then a ramping DM4, that is hgitting somewhere in the mid 30s?.

Actaully I am still waiting on the Dm4 owners, the Timmy owners, the Shocker owners, the Angel owners and just about anyone else to show me a video of one of those guns even reaching 30bps.

As far as I know, only the Automags and the Vikings I filmed have done this with paint (im not impressed with dryfire). Yes kiddies that is a challenge, I want to see something OTHER than the stuff I setup shoot fast. Heck just hit 24bps! Sound test it and put it up, none of this "my board said I shot 42bps!!!!!" yeah your board also told you that YOU pulled the trigger...

[Rift]

none of this "my board said I shot 42bps!!!!!" yeah your board also told you that YOU pulled the trigger...

lol thats just great

[FallNAngel]

This is what kind of erks me. People will complain about sweetspotting a mag, and how it is so illegal for tournies and doesn't comply with the no FA rules at the field, then the same person pulls out his timmy, or ramping DM4, and empties a halo v35 in the chrono area in 5 seconds...

So, apparently a mag capped at around 24bps, is worse then a ramping DM4, that is hgitting somewhere in the mid 30s? WTH? The entire point of hybrid mode is the sweetspotting. That was the entire point of the original RT back in the day... It is far less dangerous then a timmy with ridiculous bounce, yet no one seems to mind those.. My RT stops when I release the trigger, your (figuratively) timmy doesn't. Being anal about sweetspotting erks me. Sure, it's not legal, but at a rec field... common.

As far as the test is concerned...

it erks me too when someone has bounce or ramping on their gun... it doesn't make it right or any better for those of us (such as myself) that try to play without bounce. Honestly, I don't really care if a gun bounces when someone really gets on the trigger and adds another ball or two. Sometimes it's just too damn hard to get the bounce completely out without really messing with the way the trigger feels. Is when they pull the trigger once and it shoots two or 3 times, or they get mech bounce that it bothers me.

Just because it's rec ball doesn't mean it's legal or right.

[RTDynaflow]

it erks me too when someone has bounce or ramping on their gun... it doesn't make it right or any better for those of us (such as myself) that try to play without bounce. Honestly, I don't really care if a gun bounces when someone really gets on the trigger and adds another ball or two. Sometimes it's just too damn hard to get the bounce completely out without really messing with the way the trigger feels. Is when they pull the trigger once and it shoots two or 3 times, or they get mech bounce that it bothers me.

Just because it's rec ball doesn't mean it's legal or right.

I completely agree with you. At the same time, it is very difficult for me to get the mech bounce out of my RT. I can throw it down to 2 shims in the ULT, it chuffs like mad. I even can up my pressure to 1000psi and It still chuffs badly with 2 shims. At the same time, I *can* get it to sweetspot. If I drop it below 2 shims, it won't fire at all. Of course, this is an oldschool RT and AGD never intended for it to have a ULT .... BTW, I can easily get my viking not to bounce. Just playing with the trigger and debounce filter. It does change the trigger feel some, but I can still easily hit 14-15 legally.

My big arguement being, although both mech and electro bounce are illegal. Mech bounce doesn't run away. Electro bounce does. When I stop pulling my RT trigger, it stops firing. If I have the viking setup *perfect*, it will throw in a shot after I let off the trigger occasionally. Unfortunately, my arguement here is like pointing out the greater of two evils - comes down to it both are evil. I play with too many people who have ridiculous bounce and ramping boards. <--- not using that as a point for me to do it, just a side note . If I could take out all of my double firing and sweetspotting the RT, it would be the sad death to the gun.

Actaully I am still waiting on the Dm4 owners, the Timmy owners, the Shocker owners, the Angel owners and just about anyone else to show me a video of one of those guns even reaching 30bps.

As far as I know, only the Automags and the Vikings I filmed have done this with paint (im not impressed with dryfire). Yes kiddies that is a challenge, I want to see something OTHER than the stuff I setup shoot fast. Heck just hit 24bps! Sound test it and put it up, none of this "my board said I shot 42bps!!!!!" yeah your board also told you that YOU pulled the trigger...
Today 07:46 PM

Hehe as much as I love that statement, it isn't fair. Your QvsV35 test showed a viking, essentially going full auto. Debounce filter was probably non existent, and the trigger spring out of it I am sure. Would have been easier to get a Pandora board and set it to FA. Just a thought... I will give you props on the e-mag, though it wasn't sustained, it was impressive. There is an example of mech bounce. Mad mech bounce.... And multiple choppings

Vikings still > the above mentioned electros....

It's not on purpose. All regs output varies opposite that of the input. Unless it is a double regulator design. The one gripe I have with the dynaflow is the noticeable difference in trigger reactivty based on the tank pressure. I have to keep my tank topped off or worry about gettin dq'd when my tank pressure gets low and I get a bounce or two.

Well, I asked the question - When does this "unintentional" pressure increase start and stop, and at what rate does it increase? I have my answer....

Went out to the field today on lunch break and got me a 4500 fill - technically it was a 4000 fill.... I want my 50 cents back you air whoring bastards

So I setup my Dynaflow with the 4000psi ( ) fill on the RT and did some testing.

I started my output at 900psi with 4kpsi in the tank....

Intank PSI vs Output PSI
4000psi -- 900psi
3900psi -- 900psi
3700psi -- 900psi
3600psi -- 900psi <--- at this point I started moving in 200 psi increments
3400psi -- 900psi
3200psi -- 900psi
3000psi -- 900psi
2800psi -- 900psi
2600psi -- 900psi
2400psi -- 925psi
2200psi -- 960psi
2000psi -- 1000psi
1800psi -- 1025psi
1600psi -- 1025psi
1600psi to 1025psi -- 1025psi
<1025psi -- intank = output (of course)

Some notes I wanted to mentions... All reading were taken on the same gauges and with a stop gauge (dye gauge on a QD) attached to the tank. This removes the possibility of my gun having a leak and decreasing the output pressure. I don't have any precision gauges on the tank, so all result are +/- 20 psi or so. This doesn't discredit the results, as all reading were taken from the same gauge with no possibly of a leak while testing.

This leads me to believe it is a function of the design on this particular tank. Something that seems CF (centerflag) did intentionally. At the very least you know some exact pressure reading about the tank.


Should have made a video.. damnit

RTD

[Z-man]

Hehe as much as I love that statement, it isn't fair. Your QvsV35 test showed a viking, essentially going full auto. Debounce filter was probably non existent, and the trigger spring out of it I am sure. Would have been easier to get a Pandora board and set it to FA. Just a thought... I will give you props on the e-mag, though it wasn't sustained, it was impressive. There is an example of mech bounce. Mad mech bounce.... And multiple choppings

Actually the viking was a stock '04 Viking in simulate mode with debounce 1 and nothing done to the spring. We had a Pandora board and originally planned to use it but we were unable to make it perform even marginally as well as the WAS board (maybe it was our lack of knowledge but the WAS board RIPPED compared to the Pandora)

Secondly you must have missed my official Q-loader video as it not only has the Viking doing 31bps for the full 100 round pod but it also has my SFL doing 30bps sustained for the full 100 rounds of the QPod no stops, no chops.

Z-mans Video Page <---its the top left video "QLoader vs Halo video"

Direct link is This 28.2MB QuickTime Movie

and just to put the final nail in the coffin here is the sound analysis page of the video --->Sound Analysis

[RTDynaflow]

Hmm, I saw the Q loader Vs v35 video w/ both the viking and e-mag... "when you're shooting 35 ball per second this [halo] just doesn't cut it. I choose the winner, I choose the Q loader" <-- paraphrased [edit] "Chop Chop CHop CHOP" Wish I had it saved to HD. I need to stop trying to stream video on dial up it just doesn't work. I am downloading it now. I remember you did like 4 e-mag tests. I forget which ones the chopping occured on.

Anyway. Now that brings up more questions. I am very unfamiliar with the viking WAS board, so I would assume simulate mode is essentially FA? Pandora vs WAS now.... I was wondering just which board was faster...

It would seem that both would be equally fast in simulate vs the full auto on pandora. Right?

This would mean that it comes down to the difference in debounce logic...no? WAS debounces by only testing the switch every so often , right? Pandora debounces the signal with logic programming. From reading both the WAS and Pandora manuels, this is what I could figure out. Hmm, thinking about it, it doesn't seem that much different.

Trigger - The trigger debounce value represents the strength of the electronic filtering applied to your trigger pull. Filtering the
trigger signal is necessary, because the mechanical contacts in a trigger switch bounce several times before coming to rest. If we
did not debounce the signal, your marker might register several phantom events for each actual trigger pull.
The ideal debounce setting varies with the different makes and models of trigger switches. You must experiment to find the best
setting for your particular switch. A marker with a debounce value that is too low has a tendency to double fire, while a marker
with a debounce value set too high experiences a reduction in its maximum rate of fire.
The debounce filter strength multiplier is adjustable from 0.5 to 7.5

Don't have the quote from WAS, as I am sure you know exactly how that particular one works.

When I got my viking it was ridiculously slow and bounced WAY too much. I am not sure how fast it was, but it needed some tuning. I only got to play with the trigger for a little while, as I had to send it to have some stuff worked on. I think I am going to have to buy a WAS board to see what kind of difference there is. Pandora has some very nice features on it: Semi, auto response, turbo, FA, better eye logic, generally more features to play with. I also found them very easy to adjust through the trigger. The 0 second boot time is a little plus as well. When it comes down to it, if I can't make my own 32bps q loader video then out goes the Pandora and I get a WAS.

What modes did you try the pandora board in? Did you change the presets? If you left the preset on 1, then I can totally understand that... the gun is a tard on the first (stock) preset. They have the BPS limited to like 14 and the dwell way high along with the DB... not to mention the crazy time between when the eye detects a ball and when it fires...

You would think smartparts made it at first. Once you realize you are an idiot for trying to adjust it like a WAS board and saying "Where the hell is my colored LED??! What the hell is the flashing green crap?" for the fiftieth time and deciding to go inside and download the intruction for this board...it wasn't so sad. It is just misleading, they give a little note when you get an 04, essentially telling you the two board aren't that different and if you have problems then download the pandora stuff..