Confirmed: Shockers available with "rebound" feature

[Lohman446]

1998 rules - nice. For instance the Warp is illegal by those, the q-loader, arguably the HALO... What are the current rules?

[FalconGuy016]

I missed the rebound thing, what is it?

[Beemer]

They dont CARE about the standards

Heres what I got Tyger

[Beemer]

The rebound board is creating (or allowing) bounce/ramping. IMO, it shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree. Does the the cyborg have a bounce setting?

It won't be when the insurance companies get a clue. I swear if I get lit up by some idiot using a marker with heavy bounce/rebound/whatever, I'll be screaming at the field owner to kick said idiot off, or I'll be complaining to the fields insurance carrier.

Have a talk with Bob McGuire

Where have you been man? Everyone around here plays with bounce at rec fields. How is this any different for insurance companies than all the Spyders and clones with multi mode firing?

So whos liable when someone gets hurt? You???

If you ask me, controlled bounce like this is better than uncontrolled bounce, and I think SP was smart to go with this instead of an all out bouncy board. Good move IMO

You need to be more informed and educated.

The manufacturers need to go back to the arrangements that were made.

You mean follow ASTM Standards. There is a way but it is involved.

Just think about that the next time you see someone get ripped 10+ times in the goggles.

Or the head

From a jacked thread http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...8&page=2&pp=40

Did we have a FA rule on markers 6 years ago??

In regards to teaufs posts... Yes, I was hospitalized for 2 days for a concussion. It also took very long time for this to heal. I have had a lot worse pain and didn't pass out. What I remembered when I came to - I had come to a paintball field. My first question, What the hell happened??? I didn't fully remember any of that day for awhile. No, it wasn't just a bloody neck. Yes, I was hospitalized, and during that time, they did numerous tests to make sure I didn't have any internal bleeding. I was lucky, I can still walk, talk, type and use semi proper grammar and punctuation.

You seem to be missing my point. How many people were influenced at that hospital and that field by this incident? Do you think the doctors that treated me are going to be recommending this sport to anyone? I wanted to bring to your attention this DOES happen, and more then we would like to believe.

You are correct in one instance; the player using the marker did break a bunch of rules. I don't think if they had a 15rof limit it would have changed anything. I do think a 0 tolerance full auto rule would have. I actually recieved a visit from the gentleman who hospitalized me. He wasn't their to try and kill me. He just didn't realize the impact he could have.

I think what the NXL is doing is a good thing. Atleast in the limit aspect. However, they are shooting themselves in the foot with the full auto. None of this really concerns me, as I don't play X-ball and especially not at the pro level. I am not complaining about 10, 15, 20bps, I am talking about 20 25 30 and full auto. Debounce and ramp mode. If you can pull 20 bps legit, more power to you and your team.


Like I said, I love speedball. I want to join a tourny team soon here. I understand the risks when I signed the waiver. I understand that when I drop my mask and raise my barrel, I am throwing the dice. I have a chance I could get injured seriously. When I cross that 50 off the break I count on being hit from close range. I don't believe bps limits in themselves will stop serious injuries, I think stricter debounce and ramp rules/punishments could.

[LaW]

1998 rules - nice. For instance the Warp is illegal by those, the q-loader, arguably the HALO... What are the current rules?

Umm Lohaman... They are the current rules.

The industry just chose to ignore them, which is just dumb... The warp at the time was Fed with a gravity fed loader so there really wasnt that much of a fuss about it. But when the halo came out there was a little bit of questions about it being allowed and eventually was as markers became a lot faster so people would waste more paint and make more money for the industry... just my opinion on that though.

[SlartyBartFast]

The warp at the time was Fed with a gravity fed loader so there really wasnt that much of a fuss about it. But when the halo came out there was a little bit of questions about it being allowed and eventually was as markers became a lot faster so people would waste more paint and make more money for the industry... just my opinion on that though.

The 'no force fed' rule IIRC was more to do with whether it was available for all markers or not. Seeing as the HALO or Warp can be put on any marker it certainly doesn't give an unfair advantage.

But maybe limiting loader tech is the only way to tame the monster that paintball is becoming.

I was once knocked unconcious by a single shot to the temple from a splatmaster. I'd hate to think the consequences from multiple hits.

[manike]

Umm Lohaman... They are the current rules.

The industry just chose to ignore them, which is just dumb... The warp at the time was Fed with a gravity fed loader so there really wasnt that much of a fuss about it. But when the halo came out there was a little bit of questions about it being allowed and eventually was as markers became a lot faster so people would waste more paint and make more money for the industry... just my opinion on that though.

No we don't. We work within the rules.

The warp, and halo are both legal gravity feed devices as defined under the rules of the time they were developed.

Their ruling was if you turn it upside down and it will eventually stop feeding the paint that is in it, then at some point it is dependent on gravity and allowed. Simple, easy to test and define rule.

Q-loader wouldn't pass this rule.

SlartyBartFast, impacts in the older days of paintball were far worse than they are now, in my opinion, because the paint then was harder, heavier, and less likely to break. Paint now is made to much higher standards so the energy transmited on impact is far less.

[GT]

Sounds like a good feature.

Would be nice if it went F/A, which it almost does, after 6-7 balls.

Or.. its just hybrid in a different form, you're call.

why buy an emag when there are more than enough factory cheater guns out there?

[Beemer]

show me

I was once knocked unconcious by a single shot to the temple from a splatmaster. I'd hate to think the consequences from multiple hits.

No we don't. We work within the rules.

SlartyBartFast, impacts in the older days of paintball were far worse than they are now, in my opinion, because the paint then was harder, heavier, and less likely to break. Paint now is made to much higher standards so the energy transmited on impact is far less.

Rules what rules? Can I see them? Rules or standards?

Much higher standards. What are those? Can I see those to?

3 grams is 3 grams at 300fps. Impact force starts with distance. Todays game is played much closer then it used to be.

Anybody done any testing on the effects of multiple headshots?

[LaW]

No we don't. We work within the rules.

Thanks for clarifying the hopper question.

But as for working within the rules? I am pretty sure that NXL allowing f/a, or the production of markers that have ramping capabilities do not fall within the rules. Most people are shooting faster because the software is enhancing the rof in some way... Arnt mask lenses only tested to withstand 13bps? What happens when someone is hit at 15bps, 18bps, 20
+bps ? Not saying your completely wrong, because I know I dont know everything, just what is in front of me. Maybe you can further enhance my understanding? Thanks manike!

[SlartyBartFast]

SlartyBartFast, impacts in the older days of paintball were far worse than they are now, in my opinion, because the paint then was harder, heavier, and less likely to break. Paint now is made to much higher standards so the energy transmited on impact is far less.

I'm sure you'll find that the weight has changed very little.

Also, I believe that the impact force and fps safety limits are designed specifically for bouncers.

Otherwise, the standards are complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective.

[Tyger]

I'm sure you'll find that the weight has changed very little.

Also, I believe that the impact force and fps safety limits are designed specifically for bouncers.

Otherwise, the standards are complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective.

I want to get a clarification on what you mean by the last part, because over 300 FPS you start getting into dangerous teritory. Like breaking finger-bone territory.

And I remember those days. They sucked sometimes.

The FPS limit was instituted in the late 80's (1986 / 87?), and I for one am thankful for that. We didn't have bouncers in mind, we had safety. I won't condone it, but if you want shoot your hand at 5 feet away at around 375 or 400 PFS and tell us what happened.

But I'd like to know what you mean by "complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective"? What would, in your opinion, be pushing the limits of safety strictly from an engineering safety perspective? (Not being a jerk, I really want to know.)

-Tyger

[manike]

Rules what rules? Can I see them? Rules or standards?

Of course you can. Go look at the NPPL and PSP rules, and the ASTM standards which are required to meet definitions in the rules. Not sure where the gravity feed definition is, I'll try and find it when I get chance. It may have been a rule made by the tournament owners/organisers at the time. I remember there being a meeting to discuss it and Tex asking for a definition of gravity feed, which they supplied as above.

Much higher standards. What are those? Can I see those to?

I'm guessing you mean ASTM standards? yes you can see those also.

3 grams is 3 grams at 300fps. Impact force starts with distance. Todays game is played much closer then it used to be.

Standards for paintball weight were implemented by the ASTM to take into account projectile energy. These standards are available for you to see. In the early days and in the days of splatmasters there weren't such standards and so often paint was much heavier with a higher impact energy at equivalent ranges.

But as for working within the rules? I am pretty sure that NXL allowing f/a, or the production of markers that have ramping capabilities do not fall within the rules. Most people are shooting faster because the software is enhancing the rof in some way...

It falls within their rules now so it's allowed . The fact that we got there because people were cheating (and sometimes yes manufacturers cheating) that doesn't mean that everyone cheats the rules of breaks the standard when they try to make new products. The NXL was limited to a very small group of people who decided to make their own rules and standards.

When talking about fitting within the rules we were discussing hoppers. I personally have BIG issues with the manufacturers of cheater boards.

Arnt mask lenses only tested to withstand 13bps? What happens when someone is hit at 15bps, 18bps, 20
+bps ? Not saying your completely wrong, because I know I dont know everything, just what is in front of me. Maybe you can further enhance my understanding? Thanks manike!

I don't believe there is a required BPS test for goggles, But I would need to check the ASTM guidelines to be certain. There is a test for a number of impacts though.

[manike]

I'm sure you'll find that the weight has changed very little.

Also, I believe that the impact force and fps safety limits are designed specifically for bouncers.

Otherwise, the standards are complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective.

Erm, I think you will find the weight has changed significantly. In the early days many balls were up over 3.4g and some towards 3.8g.

Now they range from around 2.8 (cheap crap) to around 3.4 heavy tourny paint. Most are around 3.2 IIRC. ASTM standard is 3.2g.

Safety tests for ASTM standards must be conducted with paintballs that are less than 8 months old.

[SlartyBartFast]

But I'd like to know what you mean by "complete hooey from an engineering safety perspective"? What would, in your opinion, be pushing the limits of safety strictly from an engineering safety perspective? (Not being a jerk, I really want to know.)

From a safety perspective, the limits have to be designed for worst case scenario. That means paintballs hitting and not breaking.

I'd actually question the ASTM standards for goggle testing.

Because if energy is disipated by the paintball breaking, safety is dependant not on the safety equipment, but on the manufacturing of the paintballs.

If we are going to place or safety with the manufacturing of the paintballs, there needs to be a maximum drop test value allowed for paint...

I will grant that my nasty experience may have been due to a hot shot. But that's another failure in paintball. There's no built in safety to avoid dangerously fast paintballs. (not saying that would be easy or practical)