The last of the "cheating" q's, "So do you want to change?"

[Tyger]

Yes, I'm being a troublemaker still.

The other two questions have been leading up to this one. Let's go over what I've gotten from it all.

Cheating is a part of the game. It seems that this is something we all expect and understand will happen when we play paintball. When it's a featured "move" in a video game, it's an accepted practice.

Cheating is hard to control due to many factors. This is for rec ball as well as tournament play.

Nobody likes to be cheated against. I think the talk of "bonus balling" people that cheat on the generic "you" has pretty much shown that.

And even if there is no cheating, players will assume that somoene on the other team is cheating due to many factors that exist mainly in their own head.

So this brings the ultimate question : Do you want to change the current culture of cheating in the game / sport of paintball? Or I guess more correctly, do you think the culture CAN change?

Explained, are you happy with the game as it is, or would you like to see change? If so, do you think that, at this point, the game CAN change to a less cheating / harsher penalty style of play? Or do you think that it's been allowed to go "so far" that it's just how things are and it can't come back? I'm curious about the general opinion.

-Tyger

(post 1000)

[Enemy]

im kinda stuck in the middle on this a part of me is screaming for change for the cheaters out there to man up!! almost longing for the days when you cheated you were killed on the spot! but another part of me is whispering that hey if they are good enough to get away with it then why punish them.. paintball has become more like life than any other sport out there the cheaters in paintball just as the cheaters in life are very sucessfull who are we to tell them that they are wrong they are doing so much better than we are!! you ask to much tyger!!!

[space_weazel_45]

[CrimsonGhost]

I am of the ...leave it be like it is now ...but if they get caught
It would be interesting to see an "instant replay" type deal happen in the higher ranks.
Do like pro football does now...charge them something for the review and if it shows a player wiping the team he is on gets a huge penalty 3 for 1 or something.
Or the refs can go and check the tape to see if someone wiped.

I just think the reffing has to be up to a certain level and more tools need to be at the refs disposal. If it was up to me there would be 2 refs for every line of bunkers on the field...one for each side and an ultimate field ref to make the final calls.

[Lohman446]

And even if there is no cheating, players will assume that somoene on the other team is cheating due to many factors that exist mainly in their own head.

So this brings the ultimate question : Do you want to change the current culture of cheating in the game / sport of paintball? Or I guess more correctly, do you think the culture CAN change?

-Tyger

(post 1000)

I think your more right here and the feel of cheating in paintball is brought to the forefront when its really the whining about perceived cheating (that may or may not have happened) that is becoming the problem Look a smiley face... I said that nicely

[Pickle]

Or I guess more correctly, do you think the culture CAN change?

Preface: I have been playing since 1988, 89. Don't really remember.

Paintball culture has changed. It used to be that if you cheated you were severely punished. Now cheating is celebrated. This change occured in when money came into the sport. Take away the money and "fame" and you will eliminate the majority of your problem. Cheating is only a symptom of man's greed. Will this ever happen? Maybe when monkeys flies out of my ......

[Lee]

i'd like to see change. at least to the point where it's not a blatantly accepted practice.

i think in the "pro" arena, what will make the difference is truly "pro" refs. consitent, knowledgeable about the rules, able to make tough calls and have no affiliations to teams and be able to make fair calls.

[Recon by Fire]

I definitely want to see the cheating status quo change! But the cheating is not just a paintball phenomenon; it is a product of our society. Look at our society and will see the factors that lead us to cheating celebrated. It has become mainstream socially acceptable to do what ever you want, deny responsibility, and blame someone else.

[50 cal]

Players are going to cheat. Especially at tournaments, the big dollar prizes are hard to turn down. So there you have the double edged sword, take away the incentive to cheat, ie the prizes, and you have no turn out. Keep the status quo, and you will have the "cheat at all costs".
That is why I quit playing tourney ball, when you have cheaters and more importantly, the tourney sponsors that want the big name team turn outs, the sponsors will turn a blind eye. I've reffed tourneys where the Ultimate and/or the promoter has overturned calls that were just plain favoritism. I quit having anything to do with any tourney that Bill Cookston was the Ultimate, his overturning of calls got so blatantly out of hand that I couldn't stomach it. I walked rather than have anything else to do with it.
Yes, cheating is here to stay, unless the industry promotes an unbiased ref pool. That will be a hard one to pull off also. The pool should be former tourney players that no longer play tourney ball. Something like the NFL, NBA have.

[TSovern]

What if:
We used the cameras like you see on the ref, to review any questioned wipe, as well as having cameras at the bunkers. A wipe, would say, forfeit all points to the opponent. Obviously this could only be done at the Pro level, but maybe by setting a example of having to rely on skill alone, the "can't cheat to win" philosophy would trinkle down to the wanna be's.

I think if you can control it at the Pro level, it would be shunned on lessor levels.

EDIT: I guess I didn't anwser the question. Yes, I want cheating to be viewed as disgraceful, maybe some honor through peer pressure.

[defcon5freak]

maybe we can invest in those cams that football has where you can see all angles of a picture then no1 would ever cheat again!haha!

[SCpoloRicker]

Rec: I think that there is only occasional cheating, and I usually deal with this by pulling a player aside and mentioning that we're all here for fun. 2nd time, I go to the field owner. Again, with no response, and my business leaves. I try to play with good solid guys, so it isn't much of a problem.

Tourney: I don't have much experience at the highest level (none...) but I would assume most of us are crowing about nothing. I don't think that players can really get away with cheating in terms of wiping, playing on, i.e. conduct violations without being caught by a ref.

While there certainly may be favoritism towards certain teams/corporate sponsors, this is somewhat inevitable. I'm not sure if it can affect play in game changing ways.

[Chris42050]

I think cheating can be minimized with camera's for wiping in tourney's. I don't know if it would be financially feasable. It would require many camera's and many refs watching those camera's. Since I don't play tourneys it doesn't matter to much to me. As a rec player I find the only way to minimize cheating is to go to the field in a group of friends and play as a private group. I seem to have a lot more fun and people don't take the game too seriously. There is more honor when playing with friends. No one wants to be labeled as a cheater by their friends.

[Recon by Fire]

They just need to implement and adhere to one condition: If anyone on your time is caught cheating, the entire team is removed from the tournament. No questions asked!

[frop]

yes it can change. will it be easy? hell no! I hate to be a pessimist(just comes naturally to me, but i still hate it) but all these suggestion would have been great, years ago, when the mentality changed. What's required now is a so-called sea change. The whole mindset needs to change, as does the involvement of sponsors/promoters. It doesn't really matter if there's no wiping if an event is still rigged....