AGD - a prestige brand?

[Lohman446]

Let me start this off with a disclaimer - I know nothing about the internal workings of AGD, there cost structures, there profit margins, who owns what patents, or any of the actual mechanics to make something like this work.

We have been begging AGD now to make us a lower cost, mass marketed e-marker. Sponsor a few teams and push these things into "everyone's" hands. We have been asking them to enter an already oversaturated market and fight for a market share - to try to compete with the establizhed players there. AGD in response has moved towards a different direction...

Now forgive me for rambling, this post could be made more coherent. I just ordered a DevilMag - custom annoed, predator board, eyes, everything I wanted in a marker - I didn't hold anything back on it, if I wanted it I got it with the marker and as GA Devil will tell you I spent a lot of time looking at the different things I could do, andhen ordering it and adding options after I ordered - he is a very patient person. I paid twice what I could have bought a comparable marker (the Freestyle) for. Please notethat this comparable comment may not be fair, I have not compared the two markers in my hand to each other (I will be given the chance to), but I beleive they are roughly comparable. In the end is this not one of the judgements that need made, I made the comparison as a consumer and chose the mag, accepting of what I beleive an unfavorable price for performance. My friend ordered a Freestyle at the same time - it will be here well before my mag is. I am thrilled with my marker purchase, more happy with it than any of the dozen or so markers I have purchased in the past even while I acknowledge I have likely gained little if anything in performance - I might still be surprised positively but I am happy even if I am not. I am willing to wait a reasonable amount of time - a month or two, and am willing to pay a premium price to have something "special".

When you think of cars and I mention, Chevy, Ford, Chrylser, and Ferrarri what do you think of as the ultimate performance, ultimate driving experience. I am willing to guess its Ferrarri. When I mention auto racing, what do you think of - I am willing to guess most of you think Nascar. Tell me, what does Ferrarri sponsor in Nascar? Even if you take the ultimate performance vehicles from these manufacturers they just do not hold the awe of the Ferrarri Enzo - even if they came close to matching them in performance. Think Fords ill fated attempts at building a supercar in the past. Then think of some of the Jaguar supercars, there were exposed wires, wiring issues... but they were still a supercar. For those of you that fly prop planes - whats the real difference between a Cessna and a Beechcraft? Nothing really, its about "eliteness".

AGD holds an advantage over a company starting out - they have a positive reputation with many players. Sure the Mag name might need to go to something nostalgic, I myself would love to see the Panther name out. It means something to those that know AGD, but has nothing to do with the mag to those that don't. But, I don't want a cheap for the masses marker.. I don't even want to see the "pro" teams using them. I want the "mystique" of a marker not found everyday... the mystique of the Ferrarri.

Think of the success of AGD sales - the X-mag for instance. They could barely build enough for everyone that wanted it at the "custom" prices - yet its cheaper sibling, even with nearly all the advantages (except ACE) languished in dismal sales - sure theres more e-mags out there, but those should have sold faster and better than what they did.

I want to see a super marker from AGD - do what you need to legally to sell them, give SP there marketting fee per marker (think small scale runs anyways). Do what you need to to attain something new like the MQ valve, or something "new". Or not... just lets not call it an X-valve, lets rename this sucker something. Now.. there are no "stock" color schemes on this - there are various fancy milled bodies, rails, foregrips, gas thrus.. whatever it is give options, not packages. Let the customer choose anno, make each one unique, make each one something special, one of a kind - make each one the $1500, the $1800 whatever it costs to make at a profit (understading price will be higher because there will be no "economics of scale" to lessen retail). Don't sponsor teams... let these keep there mystique let them build it by word of mouth. Do what you have to build that mystique with the media... Oh, and lets take a cue from Porsche on prestige marketing - NO DISCOUNTS.

Did I say give up the RTP - not at all - it works well with what you have. Its high quaility and overpriced for its market/class (nothing against it) - think of the Porsche boxster.

Just my thoughts this morning

[chairman_mao]

Very interesting post. I thouroughly enjoyed reading this and think it is a very provocative idea. My only comment on it is that my perception was there was much chagrin among those looking to buy X-mags because of the wait. This type of marker and sales would lengthen this wait considerably and may turn a great many people away. I understand that that adds to the prestege, so to say, but it also causes sales to be less. I think if you asked any of the custom shop guys they'd all agree that people can be VERY impatient when ordering custom markers. Anyway that's just my opinion but great post and I like the direction this is may lead us in

[MindJob]

Good post... and very well thought out.

Im sure there are about a billion reasons that a company would stay away from an idea like that, but then again, PPS has made a living off like that for some time.

The big issue here is that we are talking about a possible $2000 marker. How much money is a company going to make selling a few $2000 markers as comapred to many more $600 markers?

There is also some merit to it though. A Ubergun could bring AGD back into the spotlight and help eliminate some of the ridiculous myths about AGD guns that have managed to bring them down.

Once that albatross is gone, who knows?

IMO, it would be a huge benefit for a company that could make a gun that turns everyones heads, and more importantly, make everyone envious and want one.

The first time I ran into a semi on the field I was the same way. It was a Tippman 68 Special. Everyones jaw dropped. All of a sudden, the markers that we all had weren't good enough for us anymore.

The first Angels were like that too. Not only was it technilogically superior, it was beautiful. You look at it and go "wow"

My X-mag was that way for a little while too. Now the people who know what it is are the only ones gawking at it.

SO, yes, I think AGD needs something to put themselves back on the map.

[Lohman446]

The big issue here is that we are talking about a possible $2000 marker. How much money is a company going to make selling a few $2000 markers as comapred to many more $600 markers?

Good point. How many more RTPs would it help sell though? For instance... do you think people would buy a Porsche Boxster if it were marketted as, say a Buick Reatta? If you could make the AGD name special on the high end, you would help sell the mid range marker as well to those that wanted the "ubergun" but were not willing to pay for it

[Vanced]

I'll agree and say interesting post... I like it's potential...

But I'll also play devil's advocate....

I think the long wait list and buyers of the X-mag were 95% of just AGD faithfull so the hardest part is just getting the first steps started...

I just see the paintball world a little differnt than some of the other "prestige" markets...

A prime example is right in your car example... I was watching some Car something or another on TV the other day and they were interviewing one of the higher ups at Bently ... and he even said the latest craze started by the Rap crowd is what turned his company around... And that was total dumb luck... because they have been around for many many years... making the same superior product they do now and sales were on the slumps...

So somehow AGD would have to find someone with fame and pull who is also able to have enough charisma for people to want to mimic... to start the trend... and I don't know if thoose people exist in the general paintball public... that would be willing to do it just for the "prestige" of it and not for a big fat endorsement check...

And not to mention Bentley or insert what ever you want to here... already has their product... AGD doesn't.... because as much as a lot of us loved it... the X-mag didn't cut it with the general paintball public...

And with so much else... it might be just considered a Trend... even if you could get it started... and could be the greatest thing since slice bread... but when you are dealing with fickle public opinion... they can change their mind ... VERY OFTEN... and VERY QUICKLY.... and AGD would be right back in the same position they are now... with the same core of devoted followers... and again be back in the public opinion as even worse than yesterday's news... and possibly distanceing itself from some of the new Rec and Scenerio Support it is currently gaining...

Don't get me wrong I would love to see AGD making a super marker as much as the next guy... even if it was just for us being the AGD faithfull and not with the goal to gain the overall public's praise...

[tyrion2323]

Think of the success of AGD sales - the X-mag for instance. They could barely build enough for everyone that wanted it at the "custom" prices

What you're overlooking is that AGD only made a very small amount of XMags. It's easy to sell 150 Xmags, especially with the loyal fanbase on AO. However, how many non-AOers have XMags? I'd be surprised if the number exceeded 10.

Now what if AGD had made, say, 1500 XMags? How many do you honestly think would have sold? It's easy to say that demand is high when you have such a low production number. The "success" of the XMag is trivial in comparison to, say, Kingman, which probably sells at least 150 markers/day, and yet they continue to sell at high rates.

My speculation regarding the poor sales of the Emag is that AGD wanted a ridiculous price for them. Trying to market old technology for high prices will not sell markers. When compared to Intimidators, Angels, Vikings, etc, the EMag falls pathetically short on features and performance. AGD's unwillingness to sell of their remaining stock at a fair price continues to deprive them of extra income. I imagine that, even 5 years from now, an EMag from the AGD online store will top $800 bucks.

As for the DevilMag - well, that's up to speculation. In my opinion, the Freestyle offers more (save for its ugly aesthetics), especially at half the price; however, the Devil mag seems to be a worthy competitor, even for the staunchest of critics.

[Lohman446]

What you're overlooking is that AGD only made a very small amount of XMags. It's easy to sell 150 Xmags, especially with the loyal fanbase on AO. However, how many non-AOers have XMags? I'd be surprised if the number exceeded 10.

Now what if AGD had made, say, 1500 XMags? How many do you honestly think would have sold? It's easy to say that demand is high when you have such a low production number. The "success" of the XMag is trivial in comparison to, say, Kingman, which probably sells at least 150 markers/day, and yet they continue to sell at high rates.

My speculation regarding the poor sales of the Emag is that AGD wanted a ridiculous price for them. Trying to market old technology for high prices will not sell markers. When compared to Intimidators, Angels, Vikings, etc, the EMag falls pathetically short on features and performance. AGD's unwillingness to sell of their remaining stock at a fair price continues to deprive them of extra income. I imagine that, even 5 years from now, an EMag from the AGD online store will top $800 bucks.

As for the DevilMag - well, that's up to speculation. In my opinion, the Freestyle offers more (save for its ugly aesthetics), especially at half the price; however, the Devil mag seems to be a worthy competitor, even for the staunchest of critics.

The point is though, sometimes its better to sell 10 items with a $500 markup then it is to sell 500 with a $10 markup. Prestige brands, by nature, go against the economics of scale advantages.

[RusskiX]

Good post... and very well thought out.

Im sure there are about a billion reasons that a company would stay away from an idea like that, but then again, PPS has made a living off like that for some time.

Good thread.

The only problem with producing an Ubermarker that defines high end is that in PAINTBALL the lowest common denominator prevails.

Most people at my local field would NOT recongnize a Palmer. Hence, PPS is not "in the spotlight".

People saw Angels as the new standard precisely because it WAS obtainable by the masses, not just collectors or afficianados.

Paintball just doesn't seem to be the environment that promotes exclusivity while keeping the allure of the current "IT" marker.

[tyrion2323]

The point is though, sometimes its better to sell 10 items with a $500 markup then it is to sell 500 with a $10 markup. Prestige brands, by nature, go against the economics of scale advantages.

If that were the case, then we wouldn't have both TK and the AO population complaining about how nobody knows what a mag is, or that mags don't sell. Also, if that were the case, AGD wouldn't be in the place it is today.

The population defines status and prestige. If very few people even want a product, it doesn't qualify as prestigious. People have to WANT to buy it.

[Lohman446]

If that were the case, then we wouldn't have both TK and the AO population complaining about how nobody knows what a mag is, or that mags don't sell. Also, if that were the case, AGD wouldn't be in the place it is today.

The population defines status and prestige. If very few people even want a product, it doesn't qualify as prestigious. People have to WANT to buy it.

There are steps that I have not gotten into, that I do not know the mechanics of. What I am trying to assert here is an idea of a goal. The idea I am asserting here, right or wrong, is that it may be easier to be the "prestige" brand - a market shared only by Palmers it seems, then to try to force your way into the "high sales" market that it seems to me, is already overly saturated. Trying to get into the "tournament" scene (not into being good for a tournament gun, but marketed like the Shocker) seems to be at this point to be very expensive, with only a marginal chance of success. Too much competition, etc. Do I know if I'm right or not? Not a chance I don't have any of the knowledge of the economics of paintball that it would take to know. It is simply meant as an ascertian of an idea. Sure, you would have to build a "mystique" - the mystique that was around the 03 Shocker at first, but you need to keep the marker few enough that the mystique continues. Use the competitors size, the competitors need to sell XXXXXX amount of markers to sneak in, and offer something special where you only need to sell XXX to turn your profit.. Don't try to compete with SP in SP's market (WGP/Angel, ICD, etc), create your own niche. Ferrarri, how many are sold each year? How many of us have even had the chance to experience what it is like to drive one? Yet the Enzo was sold out before prodution was finished. Let me take Mercedes as an easier example... roughly 95% of Americans (I got this number from a Mercedes conferance I was at when I worked at a dealer) see Mercedes as a vehicle of exceptional quality? I doubt 95% of Americans have ever owned a Mercedes, or for that matter know well someone that has. The point is, they are still desirable, I think it might be possible to make that niche in the paintball market. Remember, its often easier to create your own niche then try to take market share from a competitor. Mystique knowledge, right or wrong, travels well... and mystique adds to itself as it goes. Sure AGD might have to keep its mouth shut and not dispel rumors about impossible advantages of this super marker... but why not? Let's use mystique for its own hype...

I appreciate the discussion btw, I am open to the idea that this concept may be ludicrous, and it surely would not be easy... but I think it very possible, and I think AGD now in a position to take advantage of that possibility.

[Iceman8446]

[PBX Ronin 23]

I want to see a super marker from AGD - do what you need to legally to sell them, give SP there marketting fee per marker (think small scale runs anyways). Do what you need to to attain something new like the MQ valve, or something "new".

I would always listen to ideas anytime, anyplace.

[Chronobreak]

sry lots of info here so i dint read everyones replies

i agree about the new valve or mq-valve it wou8ld be great if agd and pbx worked together.
but doubtfull.

im not sure how much $ valve sales account for or if agd would be hurt by not selling as many valves as marker(body,rail,foregrip) er nm forget the foregrip NO ONE LIKES THOSE AGD!!

[Gunga]

forget the foregrip NO ONE LIKES THOSE AGD!!

Plenty of people like the foregrip just fine, like me. As with most things, you usually only hear about it from those who don't like something and complain. .0001% of people ever call tech support to say, "Hey, I'm having no problems at all, great product!".

Interesting idea, Lohman. Only problem I can think of with the idea (using your Ferrari analogy) is that while the Enzo is quite exclusive, it's performance is equalled/surpassed by only a handful of cars which cost similar amounts of money or more. In paintball, your performance is based on how fast you can move your finger (leaving ramping/software cheats/etc out of it). There are lots of guns out there that can shoot faster than you can possibly pull the trigger. AGD'd would have to figure out some sort of exclusive feature that nobody's come out with yet.

Ferrari's certainly have looks going for them. That's certainly an area that Mags could use improvement on.

[Lohman446]

I used Ferrarri as an example for shock value, to get everyones attention. Let's say we had used examples like the Mercedes S500, Bentlley, Bose sound systems, or any other number of things and brands that represent prestige pricing with performance advantages being questionable, all you have to be sure of, is that you have the latest feature (like ramping on the predator board). I mean side impact air bags? How useful do you think they actually are - I know what they "can" do - I sat in on the seminars. I was flat out told by one car company that the purpose of offering AWD on a vehicle originally equipmed with front wheel drive was to make it more exclusive, to make it more pricey, and it really had no real world performance advantage over the front wheel drive model in any real world situation. HIs words "we polled people who had looked at our cars, and they had bought soemthing else because they wanted something more expensive then there neighbors Suburban, so now we have made it so that our car can be more expensive than that Suburban". These were not big cars either... four door sedans. I trust the point is out there on what I mean though.