ok i have a retro valu and a maxflow(dont think it matters) i opperate at 450 or 500 psi...i get 850 out of my 68 3k tank....i dont know why i just do 
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just saying because at <1k psi, mine really doesn't like more than 2 bps and at 500, it won't even shoot.
well maybe its because I dont have an xvalve yet. is there much diference between the classic and the x when it comes to operating pressure?[/QUOTE]
No. I'm using an eMag valve (same as a ReTro) with the shortest level 10 spring and the stock eMag barrel. The input pressure was at 800 psi.
Yours sounds like the carrier is too tight.
Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech LubricantComment
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thats odd, if i run anything lower than 850 into my e-mag the on/off doesnt seem to kick in hard enuff, which makes for a slow firing gun on my part. of course i normally l ike to shoot bettwen 15-17 bps and I cant have my marker failing me.Comment
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i have a hyper fram i max out at 13bps mabey that why i can shot at 500psi i dont knowComment
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Okay let me further explain this, this is the energy need to propel a ball of varying wieghts down the length of a frictionless barrel with perfect energy conversion. The purpose is to show how much energy you would need to to fire various pballs if you could only use a certain amount of the air in the tank i.e. 1900 PSI to say 2600PSI from a 68 cu inch 3000 PSI tank. The final number I give, which says automag dump chamber pressure is the hypothetical pressure the dump chamber would need for an automag to be that efficient.
1) barrel porting kills efficiency in LP guns, LP guns need longer barrels to propel their Pballs up to speed.
2) HP is the solution to this and why Tom Kaye used HP in his guns and never went the LP road as I understand it. Using HP you can propel a paintball up to any given FPS in a much shorter difference, The benefit is using a substatially smaller barrel to play with and still having excellent efficiency.
3) Automags as I under stand them typicallly have 400PSI to 450PSI plus or minus in their dump chambers, which is where they are inefficient, However again you propel the ball to very high speeds in a very very short distance.
4) Obviously Tom did a lot of research and found that indeed pballs can take very HP to be fired with no detrimental effects other than not being able to use the fuill potentional energy of the bottle you have your gun on.
5) Many people have done analysis of many other guns on diffferent forums and posts looking at a number of guns and have concluded a great deal of things from ithem, mainly that automags have roughly 50% efficiency, a great deal of guns can not exceed that by design, old shockers for instance, the new ion again gets about what we do, a cocker in theory if tuned to within a hairs breath of not working can get 75% maybe the one good thing for them.
6) The data I present tries to show what a mag would need to be perfectly efficiencywith the various weight pballs and the difference in efficiency between 280FPS and 300FPS, which is much more substantial than I thought.
7) The data I used on the paintballs comes from this website. http://home.comcast.net/~dyrgcmn/pball/paintstats.html
Which shows when you go with obviously cheap paintballs your velocity and gas consumption will be radically different with just a slight mass increase or decrease.
8) To hopefully answer some questions I have seen some mags shot to 400PSI left in the tank but their velocities were low and they were with ULT's which do not need the HP of the RT to work
9) my emag on the other hand stops around 700PSI on my tank befor enot working, which seems to be consistent with the majority of mag users.
10) Basically I wanted to see if the mag has the potential to be more gas efficient, which in point of fact it does, and I actually suspect that if AGD continues on in development we may see.
11) besides lowering the dump chamber pressure, another effciency option would be to reduce the size of the dump chamber , which apparently was done back in the day for a very select number of mags, these came in the guise of slip in rings which resized the dump chamber and gave the mags 20% more effciiency, however this is no longer possible because the classic valve had a unscrewable powertip.
12) The average RT user should get out of a 68/3000 approximately 777 with variations in temp, pball weight, and FPS your using.
13) if you notice however in the data that if you choose to shot your gun at 280FPs as opposed to 300FPS you should in most cases be able to squeeze out another hopper to another pod worth of shots.
Thank You all for the continued interest and the numbers.Comment
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The 1100 setting is meaningless. What's important in any calculation of this sort is the minimum operating pressure.Originally posted by UpliftedApe
How do you corrolate the dump chamber pressure with inefficiency? I think you're making a crass error of assuming that the dump chamber residual pressure is zero after a pball has been fired.Originally posted by UpliftedApe
The calculation of energy used per shot is the delta in dump chamber pressure for each shot.
But lowering the dump chamber size INCREASES the required dump chamber pressure. I think this underscores that your calculations and understanding of the issue might are not quite right.Originally posted by UpliftedApe
The statements made suffer from at least one major misconception. The myth of HP and LP. Both only really refer to the "operating" pressure of a marker. The pressure required to cycle the mechanism. AGD data clearly shows taht regardless of operating pressure, the pressure experienced by the pball and the acceleration imparted to it is virtually identical.
Another major misconception is "efficiency". It's not important how much of the available energy is transfered to the paintball. What is important is the number of shots between requried refills. Further complicated by the fact that number of "usable" or "acceptable" shots is another criteria altogether.
Can you please post your equations? The energy ones seem too simplistic. And the value for the dump chamber pressure is not clear. There are two pressures you need to know, not just one. The charged pressure before firing and the residual pressure after firing.Comment
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The formulas are very simple and are on both of those forums.
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Drawings and Patents for mags
To keep those who read this informed a buddy hooked me up with a website that literally has just about every paintball patent the dude could find, with links to pdf's . Included are the original mag patent, the RT, the warp feed, and whole lot of everything AGD and other random people have come up with over the years. I am gonna post the links to two of the Automag patents and then to the general website so you fine folk can browse at your own convience.
For the RT:
For the A.I.R. Valve, notice the different trigger system orignally used/invisioned.
This is the website with the links to a huge number of paintball patents and schematics.
Side Note: it's interesting to see who the patents names are, and who they list as references, the two most cited names I could find were Tippman and Tom i.e. Thomas G. Kotsiopoulos.
It's.
This is the patent for Tippman the date is 1989 interesting eh?
The Tippman in this patent was actualy fairly clever and sorta neat looking.
This is another Automag patent with a graph that backs up a good deal about what I was saying about the pressure the automag uses to get up to certain FPS. 400PSI+ at 280 to 300FPS. You can see that around, I am assuming 97-98 Tom and team improved the valves to actually use less PSI to fire paintballs comperable speeds. He states in the patent that with his improvement he see a 115 PSI difference at 300FPS from the original mag to this improved design.
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Wow... I am in awe... and suprised. So cool number crunching going on here and, and I do miss the older Tippmann stripper fed guns...
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props to the ape for keeping this a much more intelligent forum than PBN
PurpleComment
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Wut? R U sayin dat pbnation is full of morons?Originally posted by purple
Ha. In all honesty, the only thing important to me is if I can shoot all the paint I take on the field for each game with one tank without running out. I wish the mag was more efficient, but what are you gonna do?Comment
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A couple of numbers that may influence the data here-
The on-ball pressure in a mag is ~65psi.
The residual charge in the dump chamber after firing a ball is ~50psi. It is 0 is it's a dryfire.
And Ape gets the prize for the longest post EVER.Comment
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3.2g is a good number to work from. In reality they vary from just under 3g to around 3.4g.Originally posted by hitech
EDIT: Just saw a link to paintball measurements. Nice to see it shows the same answers.
Cheaper fills end up with lighter paint (and less range people!) and top tournament paint often comes out heavier (more range! and more likely to break if the shell is the same because it carries more energy).Last edited by manike; 03-11-2005, 01:14 PM.Comment
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I was unaware that paintball weight devaited as much as 13%. Learned something new today.Originally posted by manikeComment
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For the life of me I can't find my list of paintball weights, but I did find some previously posted info...
Originally posted by RedkeyHere are some measurements I made. Min of 20 balls were weighed for each paint type. Yes, I know, 0.1 mg resolution is overkill. I also have some seam and pole crush load data around here somewhere.
My list also included some of the more top end Paints like Hellfire and Imperial which were right up over 3.3g and towards 3.4g...Originally posted by ES13RavenI think the average is about 3.2 grams.....
Some paintballs weigh A LOT less. RPS Lightning weighs 2.5 grams
Here are some weights I have found so far:
Inferno--3.27g
JT--3.19g
Flash--3.23g
Direct Hit--3.26g
PMI--3.21g
Marbalizer--3.25g
Lightning--2.56g (Now RPS Mercury)
Big Ball--3.18g
All Star--3.23g
All Star Yellow--3.14g
Evil Marbs--3.22g
Great American Premium--3.17gComment
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