PSP Impliments 15 BPS Cap; WAS Responds.

[Beemer]

There is either some inconsistencies with Drew's insurance carrier's underwriting compared to other carriers OR these other board manufacturers are going out selling their products without the adequate insurance coverage to cover their liability.

If it's the later, do we have another proliferation of "cowboy" business people making products without considering the liabilities associated with those products?

Hmmmm.

Or both, which is what I think is the case. Just because you have insurance doesnt mean its Adequate. The first is easy to prove and I wouldnt doubt the second[ding ding] note to self, talk to insurance companies and laywer again and the ASTM and CPSC.

So lets see................ I want to go play in a major tournment where I know for a Fact they arent following ASTM SAFETY gun Standards and the insurance MIGHT be in Adequate. Ok Where does my team sign up

As for his comments on the standards he is off a little, unless they changed them on the last meeting this past November. The last I knew Bud was the chairman of the subcommittee, but that was middle last summer and I am not sure of any changes.
ASTM was, is 300fps semi only. 1 shot 1 pull NO MODES

[cledford]

I tried to point out the irony twice - you did a better job of it

WAS is just trying to keep a lock on his corner of the market - he cares nothing about the sport. If "ramping" and "full-auto" are banned, then his competition dries up and everyone goes back to buying his particular version of the cheater board - keeping him fat and happy.

This is only self serving IMHO.

-Calvin

[Lohman446]

So lets see................ I want to go play in a major tournment where I know for a Fact they arent following ASTM SAFETY gun Standards and the insurance MIGHT be in Adequate. Ok Where does my team sign up

I insisted on a clarification from my insurance company last year. I'm not going to go into policy limits but I beleive myself to be adequately covered for anything that could occur involving a single person in paintball. As long as the act is not with the intent to harm someone, with the exception of they will cover me in a justified shooting (firearm), then I'm good. We specifically discussed paintball (no I did not bring up modes of fire) and the decision they came back to me with was my intent is what mattered - if I shot someone with the intent to seriously injure them I am not covered, if it is part of the game I am.

[Beemer]

Thats good for you

I insisted on a clarification from my insurance company last year. I'm not going to go into policy limits but I beleive myself to be adequately covered for anything that could occur involving a single person in paintball. As long as the act is not with the intent to harm someone, with the exception of they will cover me in a justified shooting (firearm), then I'm good. We specifically discussed paintball (no I did not bring up modes of fire) if I shot someone with the intent to seriously injure them I am not covered, if it is part of the game I am.

Well that sounds good for you. Now mention modes and guns that dont meet known safety standards and see what they say. You have a special fire arms policy or a rider on another policy? What about everybody else. I should put this in the whos liable thread. I think some home owners around here might be surprised to find out they arent covered or could be held responsible. Wanna gamble with the House?

So lets see................We shorten the game range[smaller field] keep FPS the same and increase the ROF using guns that dont meet known safety standards and we dont increase the SAFETY gear[better head neck and body protection] Ya like I said where do we sign up.


If I go to a field that doesnt care I
1. Leave
2. Out play you with skill
3. Get my Butt kicked

All of the above has happened.

Just so you know I only play 1 shot 1 pull. Its a liability, responsibility thing.[I cant say I dont or didnt know] if I happen to hurt another player. Untill some REAL testing is done and the SAFETY standards and protective gear change, gets better.

You can have the ramp or auto and I will play but will also bring better protection.
Call it what ever you want. I call it smart with a sense of self preservation.

Just because it hasnt happened doesnt mean it cant, and the Fact that the chance is there no matter how big or small its still a chance that nobody seems to care about.

Peace Out

[Lohman446]

Well that sounds good for you. Now mention modes and guns that dont meet known safety standards and see what they say. You have a special fire arms policy or a rider on another policy? What about everybody else. I should put this in the whos liable thread. I think some home owners around here might be surprised to find out they arent covered or could be held responsible. Wanna gamble with the House?

I am not for a moment disagreeing wtih you that there is a serious potential danger to what we do - do you think that I went into my insurance company and brought this up just on a whim? I carry a very broad personal liability policy that most people do not, its not that expensive and gives me very good coverage for liability issues where other policy's (homeowners) might fall short. In the event someone was injured by my actions my house insurance and liability insurance would argue over who is to pay it (not really, as they are both through the same company). PSP rules only help me, in that I can point to there rules, there mode of fire rules and say I was following "accepted" practices for the game I play. Besides... the example we discussed that had gone to court in a policy like I carry - a kid who's parents carry the same policy had thrown a baseball bat at another kid on a bike, that bat had hit the spokes of the tire and lodged in there, flipping the bike and injuring the other kid. Because the bat thrower stated he had tried to throw the bat at the kid and not injure him (his intent was not to injure) they were actually covered - yeh its a surprise.

In agreement with you, I would recommend anyone who is not judgement proof who plays paintball to look into a good personal liability policy in case something does happen. The issues that Beemer and others bring up are issues - that will likely leave you in a bad situation should you ever have to defend yourself in civil court.

[REDRT]

When I was in the military there was a time that we were given Daisey red riders to attack a building armed with Crossman 760 pumpmasters. I this exercise we were wearing just the goggle over are eyes like if you were wood working. If your not familar with the Pumpmaster it fires a steal BB at 625fps. I think you guys are way over reacting! I'd rather take 20-30 paintballs to the head at once with our safety gear than just one of thoughs BB's to my face again! As they say in the Marine Corps,"what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger". Your best bet of dieing on the field is heat stroke or maybe a tank failure. Not a paintball.

[hitech]

I would love to get HiTech and Beemers opinion on there....where you guys at?

I don't get out much on weekends...

I think Jim complaining about ramping boards is, well quite funny...

Unless the ASTM standard changed, there is NO bps cap. There is a rule against ramping AND bouncing markers; One shot per pull and release of the trigger is the only "mode" allowed. He doesn't follow ASTM standards so I guess I shouldn't expect him to know them.

I think it is a matter of when not if someone will loose a lawsuit because a marker did not meet ASTM standards. And it may not even matter if meeting the standards would have prevented the injury. Unless the ASTM standards change (or have already changed) a big payout from a lawsuit is going to happen. I just can't tell you when.

Jim, complaining about adding shots... I just can't get over that one....

[cledford]

[PBX Ronin 23]

Or Jim Drew isn't looking hard for insurance - or isn't telling the complete and honest truth no way... Jim Drew be less than honest to promote his business... now way oh, wait, this is Jim Drew we are discussing... I pick option three

I keep on forgeting that Jim Drew has a certain reputation on AO.....my bad.

[Lohman446]

I keep on forgeting that Jim Drew has a certain reputation on AO.....my bad.

Not that he earned it or anything

[hitech]

[SlartyBartFast]

6.5.2 All paintball markers intended to be used with refillable
cylinders shall be able to withstand input pressure of three
thousand pounds per square inch 207 bar (3000 psi) without
catastrophic failure. Leaking in a manner which would not
cause injury to the operator shall not constitute failure.

Glad to see that part finally quoted.

Shows the general griping and holier-than-thou claims of AO members demeaning other markers for not being able to withstand 3000psi are wrong.

By the above, a burst disk installed anywhere between the tank and the marker (even it was a 100psi one) will make the marker ASTM compliant.

[Lohman446]

Glad to see that part finally quoted.

Shows the general griping and holier-than-thou claims of AO members demeaning other markers for not being able to withstand 3000psi are wrong.

By the above, a burst disk installed anywhere between the tank and the marker (even it was a 100psi one) will make the marker ASTM compliant.

The rule as I read it means without catastrophic failure - ie marker blowing apart. It does not say that the marker has to survive it and function afterwards

[PBX Ronin 23]

Well, from the looks of it, the PSP just plain buckled under. I still believe that we can still fight the tide of E-board cheaters by having (i) on the spot reflashing and (ii) a "certified" board that meets certain standards and criteria and only these boards should be allowed to compete at the highest level of tourney play (PSP, NPPL, NXL, etc.).

Life time bans for those players looking to circumvent the rules. Instant forfeiture for the rest of the team.

The ASTM must start looking into the certification of boards.

[hitech]

By the above, a burst disk installed anywhere between the tank and the marker (even it was a 100psi one) will make the marker ASTM compliant.

I would disagree. The bust disk would have to be installed in the marker for the marker to be ASTM compliant. Just as simply using a flatline (with built in overpressure relief) does not make a marker compliant. The MARKER must be able to handle 3000 psi.