How close to criminal negligence are we

[Lohman446]

This is the problem I see now
Questions that are going to be asked and you may have to answer

You used (made/sold/loaned out) a paintball gun that did not comply with accepted industry standards published by the ASTM?

The rules of the event you were at (PSP) required all players to insure that there equipment meant ASTM standards - did you?

Who's standards did you follow in making certain that your equipment was safe?

You are aware that there have been deaths associated with faulty equipment in paintball correct?

What modifications have you done to your equipment, or had done that are not as it was set from the manufacturer?

Did you take any steps to make the trigger more sensitive, or to make the marker fire faster than in factory form?

I still beleive we are on the wrong side of negligence, but right now I am going to thank PSP. Because at the third question I'm going to point, very often and as loudly as possible, at the PSP and pray, if its me, that I have a sympathetic jury or prosecutor.

Edit: the irony of all this - when it does happen, you know who is going to be safest? The paint manufacturers who profit from the use of "imrpoved firing modes". Did you follow directions on the side of the box? - Do not shoot closer than XX (see I dont even know what hte distance is). We assumed it was used in a ASTM complaint marker... etc.

[REDRT]

Won't help you in criminal court. In freestyle motocross if someone crashes and is hurt THEY crashed. In paintball if someone is killed it is not the victim who pulled the trigger - it was not the victim who (hypothetically) was in violation of known safety standards at the time of the incidient.

Are we talking about getting hurt or getting dead? Motocrosser hurt isn't the same as paintballer dead! So far the record has been really good on the paintball side of things. I think it can remain so in the future.

[Lohman446]

Are we talking about getting hurt or getting dead? Motocrosser hurt isn't the same as paintballer dead! So far the record has been really good on the paintball side of things. I think it can remain so in the future.

I don't think it matters legally but I do not think we are going to have an issue until someone is killed or very seriously injured solely because it won't grab the industry attention. I do think at that point we will have a serious issue. We might be perfectly safe right now - or as safe as we can be, I really don't know. However, I know that given enough chances with enough people. etc something is eventually going to happen - I think its just a fact as the scale grows. I'm willing to accept that risk, however I think, given the current apathy towards ASTM standards we are risking much more than the tragedy itself, and the civil suit to follow - I beleive with the current atmosphere and disregard for industry standards someone is going to go to jail on negligence charges.

[REDRT]

This ASTM seems to me just plain inaffective. As it was posted by TK there was atempts to create something new so that it could address safety more affectively, but it continually fails. Sort of like the arguements here on AO. Seems we agree that change is need. From what I gather most of you are going by the ASTM standard in your arguement. I'm leaning for a new agency that is more on the ball and could be updated on a regular bases. Though idea has failed in the past according to Tom, it still has merit. Maybe that eariler idea of a fantacy goverment isn't such a bad idea after all. But it would need to be a balance of people for one end to the other to come up with a solution in the middle. Cant stack the fantacy goverment.

[Lohman446]

. Seems we agree that change is need. From what I gather most of you are going by the ASTM standard in your arguement. I'm leaning for a new agency that is more on the ball and could be updated on a regular bases. Though idea has failed in the past according to Tom, it still has merit.

Agreed - and I am using ASTM as the standard at this point because, in a criminal or civil court I beleive it would be used as the standard. If I am giving something else, some regulatory body with real power than I can accept there standards as well. Something for when the tragedy occurs and I am asked "did you follow industry accepted standards and safety practices" Ideally I would be able to say yes - this body sets those standards and practices and I was in complaince with them. This body uses this knowledge, testing, and evidence to base those standards and practices on. I had ever reason to beleive what I was doing was safe. If I could say this in court I might have a chance. Right now, we as players / promotors / manfucturers for the most part do not have any chance in court, at least from what I can see and my uneducated opinion.

I do not know what it would take to make the ASTM go away, or if we can. Evidently there system does not make for a fluid system. A second regulatory body - used by players, manufacturers, promotors that had real authority (in my profession it is ASE for certification of techs / procedures / even some equipment I beleive) that I could point to in court... even if it was only secondary might help - AS LONG AS WE FOLLOWED THERE REGULATIONS. The key is, right now - we are not willing to follow the ASTM standard it seems, nor are we willing to set up a regulatory body for ourselves. It leaves us in a dangerous legal enviroment.

[REDRT]

Agreed - and I am using ASTM as the standard at this point because, in a criminal or civil court I beleive it would be used as the standard. If I am giving something else, some regulatory body with real power than I can accept there standards as well. Something for when the tragedy occurs and I am asked "did you follow industry accepted standards and safety practices" Ideally I would be able to say yes - this body sets those standards and practices and I was in complaince with them. This body uses this knowledge, testing, and evidence to base those standards and practices on. I had ever reason to beleive what I was doing was safe. If I could say this in court I might have a chance. Right now, we as players / promotors / manfucturers for the most part do not have any chance in court, at least from what I can see and my uneducated opinion.

I do not know what it would take to make the ASTM go away, or if we can. Evidently there system does not make for a fluid system. A second regulatory body - used by players, manufacturers, promotors that had real authority (in my profession it is ASE for certification of techs / procedures / even some equipment I beleive) that I could point to in court... even if it was only secondary might help - AS LONG AS WE FOLLOWED THERE REGULATIONS. The key is, right now - we are not willing to follow the ASTM standard it seems, nor are we willing to set up a regulatory body for ourselves. It leaves us in a dangerous legal enviroment.

Finally a break thru! Found common ground!

[Lohman446]

Finally a break thru! Found common ground!

To me.. the first step in fixing a problem is finding it. I beleive it is pretty obvious with the current atmosphere in paintball that we are setting ourselves up for serious criminal liabilities. I can live with the fact that there are civil liabilities in a lot of things, I do not want to live with the fact that there is criminal liability in it and frankly, one of us may go to jail over these issues. Once we know that there are issues and how serious they are - once we as an industry, players, and promoters accept that they do in fact exist rather than ignoring them - then we can address ways to deal with those issues. Are the current protection standards good enough to allow ramping shots? They may very well be. The problem I have is I do not have anything that I could point to in court should something happen that says they are... in fact the only thing I can point to as standards in our industry (ASTM) tells me it is not.

I know, that even if we are within the regulations accidents and tragedies may occur. Regulations, and adherence to them, only serve to provide a legal shelter when those occur - its a legal shelter that we do not have right now.

[Spartan X]

Maybe you guys should take this to a PM? You 2 or 3 are the only ones posting back abd forth.

[REDRT]

To me.. the first step in fixing a problem is finding it.

If one investigates something and scrutinize it mulitple times, problems create themselves. Sort of like over maintenance. I guess an independent would have to investigate if any problem excisted. Then report its findings a counsil of some sort. They would be incharge of any restructuring based on the findings of the independent investigation. In speculating the current problems we might be close or simply way off. Hard to say at this point.

[Enemy]

as of right now with the ASTM the only set standard in the industry lohman is right someone will go to jail. but what both me and my father agree is that if this occured in the psp the promoter and manufacter would be the ones facing the punishment not the play. the basic argument here is if it is unsafe than why would a nationally recognized tournament allow it! a player thereoff can not be lieable if they were following the set rules bye that organization that enough overrides ASTM for the the player! However outside of the set rules of the psp the player now becomes responsible for the compliance of his/her gear, so he/she would probably be charged as well as the field with their only defense well the psp allowed so we did too!(not a very good one, really only works when you are playing in the psp). The industry and the psp and nxl however would have to answer as to what testing had been done to disprove the astm to allow this feature! Its like in the irl where as the technology had become so good that the legue had to start regulating it down as to keep the speeds from becoming excessivly unsafe! also look at how if you come to close to another car you are penalized!
Which brings me to the next argument REDRT can you prove that ramping is not unreasonably safe? LOHMAN already has a case with the ASTM stating that it is!

I am going to repeat myself to make sure this point is made as i think it is a good one.. a player can not be held responsable for somthing if the rules clearly state that it is allowed! this means that inside the psp the player is not responsible if something happens but the event coordinator and the league itself is as well as manufacters of that product!

and please no more analagies with the cars there are places where you can legally do any speed its called a track and it is stated in every MFG book that you are to obey any and all traffic laws during the use of this vehicle!

lastly lohman you really need to change that useful post count to 5 this was a good thread heck you got a sticky!!

[REDRT]

Which brings me to the next argument REDRT can you prove that ramping is not unreasonably safe? LOHMAN already has a case with the ASTM stating that it is!

I think you got me wrong. I'm all for ramping, bouncing, what ever. I like fast. Enhanced fire modes really depends on things like total bps, dwell time things like that as much as the shooter. Just fired a predator emag. Pretty fast. I would bet if one was to go psychotic with it you could hurt or maybe kill someone with it. Pretty serious marker demanding respect and control. Not a marker for a hot head. That was the purpose of the thread was to discuss the possibilty of being how close to criminaly negligent in exceding standards set forth by ASTM. As I said earlier I feel the enhanst features could and should be retained, but maybe with a slight throttling back, because of safety. Many people would like them gone period. I'd like to see comprimise on both sides.

[Lohman446]

as of right now with the ASTM the only set standard in the industry lohman is right someone will go to jail. but what both me and my father agree is that if this occured in the psp the promoter and manufacter would be the ones facing the punishment not the play. the basic argument here is if it is unsafe than why would a nationally recognized tournament allow it! a player thereoff can not be lieable if they were following the set rules bye that organization that enough overrides ASTM for the the player!

You're right that PSP accepting it does present some defense, I doubt enough but some. I have not read through the PSP rules entirely, even if they allow ramping they disallow it elsewhere I think - at least last years rules stated that it was the players responsibility to ensure gear met ASTM standards - if that clause is still in there it presents an interesting consideration and a quandry when it is brought up at an event.

[rabidchihauhau]

Oy Vey

First,

the ASTM does not have an enforcement arm, for a good reason. They want to stay removed from the business end of things so that everyone in a particular industry will participate and voluntarily comply with the standards. Adding an enforcement arm would embroil them in all kinds of conflict of interest issues.

Second, the ASTM system was developed to create reasonable standards that are solidly based on reality AND ones for disparate industries that do not step on each other's toes. All of the standards enacted must be in compliance with any other pre-existing standards that they might impact. (You can't use stanards for one industry to force another industry to change what they are doing...)

Third, you're not going to 'make them go away' or 'get rid of them'; they're quite well grounded and respected and participated in.

You're not going to make them work faster, as the system is a consensus-building system which must be reviewed by overseeing bodies and etc all the way up the chain. Given their role, this is probably the best way for them to do their jobs.

So far as the negligence and responsibility issues go: if you attend a party and the rules of the party state that illegal drugs may be used and their use is encouraged by the management, and you do drugs, and the party gets raided, you're going to look pretty foolish standing in front of a judge and stating that you shouldn't go to jail because the rules of the party said its ok.

You can't use someone else's rules to justify 'illegal' behavior on your part, especially when you are aware that its illegal. If you know the ASTM standards, and you know an event disregards them in their own rules, and you disregard them with your hardware and hurt someone, you're just as complicit as the event is.

[shartley]

First,

the ASTM does not have an enforcement arm, for a good reason. They want to stay removed from the business end of things so that everyone in a particular industry will participate and voluntarily comply with the standards. Adding an enforcement arm would embroil them in all kinds of conflict of interest issues.

Second, the ASTM system was developed to create reasonable standards that are solidly based on reality AND ones for disparate industries that do not step on each other's toes. All of the standards enacted must be in compliance with any other pre-existing standards that they might impact. (You can't use stanards for one industry to force another industry to change what they are doing...)

Third, you're not going to 'make them go away' or 'get rid of them'; they're quite well grounded and respected and participated in.

You're not going to make them work faster, as the system is a consensus-building system which must be reviewed by overseeing bodies and etc all the way up the chain. Given their role, this is probably the best way for them to do their jobs.

So far as the negligence and responsibility issues go: if you attend a party and the rules of the party state that illegal drugs may be used and their use is encouraged by the management, and you do drugs, and the party gets raided, you're going to look pretty foolish standing in front of a judge and stating that you shouldn't go to jail because the rules of the party said its ok.

You can't use someone else's rules to justify 'illegal' behavior on your part, especially when you are aware that its illegal. If you know the ASTM standards, and you know an event disregards them in their own rules, and you disregard them with your hardware and hurt someone, you're just as complicit as the event is.

[Vanced]

I basically said this before...

Bottom line... The problem is here to stay.. weather they are rule book legal or not until something forces it to stop, or it stops being VERY profitable...

But my opinion about all the E-Assisted High ROF / ASTM issues out there is this... It is going to take enough people getting seriously hurt due to it and enough judges, lawyers, and insurance to put a stop to it...

One Multi-Million Dollar Lawsuit at a time...

Until that happens ... it won't no matter how much talk there is about it... we just aren't that good in this socity at preventing problems before they actually happen... even if we know it is inevitable... and sad to say it starts to sound like we are almost hoping for some to get hurt to help the problem...

And Odds are it won't... We have been playing this long... The masks get better, the clothes get better.... But so far... the most we can come up with is a few serious injury's and one suspecious death in England... Enough people will just pay off the families and who they need to ... to "settle" their suits...

Because the single average player, promotor, and idustry exec. won't and probably can't... unless by some miracle of the paintball gods they would actually band together , form a set of standards and protocol and stick to it... and ENFORCE THE OUT OF IT !

Why won't it... Because it just isn't profitable... and if someone does want to take a higher road and doesn't feel comfortable risking himself & his family's lively hood ... your only option is to step out and let the mass of willing others to step in and fill that void... (We miss ya Tom...)

And even if something drastic happens and all the major producers of gear refuse to produce any non-astm compliant gear and the tourny side of it can be cleaned up for the most part... there will still be cheats, and anyone willing to do what ever it takes to get an advantage... Just look to the current headlines and all the steriod talk in baseball... and there will always be some guy in his shop making non-compliant gear for profit... Heck just like now I know I can go out and get full-auto modifications for my real fire arms, or steriods if I wanted to gain a competitive edge in athletics...

So ... I hate to talk about a problem without a solution... and the only one I know of it is ... and I don't even like it... would be for government to get involved and I HATE the thought of that a lot worse than exsesive ROF guns... I can just avoid the nonsense and play someone where else on my own rules with my own friends... So if you don't like what you see and you don't feel... Play elsewhere or not at all... Our Money started this problem... and Our Money is the only tool we as the players have to TRY and remedy it... But this Pandora's box is wide open...

So Play Safe, and may the good Lord keep an eye out on us all... Because we might need it...