Superbolt Update #2

[AGD]

SB Owners,

First some statistics, we have about 150 SBolts out in the world right now. Less than 12 have been sent back for updating from end users. We did get about 25 back from dealers who didn't sell them. As far as we can tell less than 20 out of the 150 have had a breakage problem. I want to clarify this is "as far as we can tell"

The problem bolts all crack up the side and then around the top. This we determined was from overstressing the plastic sleeve. The normal engineering procedure to fix this is to stress relieve the plastic with heat. We tested several as is Sbolts by notching the plastic sleeve in the side of the bolt and then spreading it apart with a screwdriver. They cracked the same as the problem bolts. Next we boiled several for a few minutes and did the same test. In every case the boiled bolts did not crack and in fact the plastic remained "chewy" all the way up the length of the bolt.

Based on this testing, with a known commonly used fix, we felt the problem was solved. To cure the ball breakage we machined out the centers of all the bolts and replaced them with glued in foamies. We packaged all the bolts back up with an extra foamie and were ready to ship them out.

We gave three fixed bolts to our team Butterscotch Yo and the next day they reported one of the bolts broke. We put an immediate halt on the bolt shipments before any went out to understand why. We just got back the one broken bolt and only the front half is broken off. It is not split down the side.

Now Eric and I are sitting here staring at each other trying to figure out what to do. Almost all of the bolts broke in the first 500 shots. We tested several this way and they end up scuffed and looking used. The average guy would get upset getting "used parts" new in the box from AGD. We could send out an extra sleeve with each one but that doesn't solve the problem. We can switch to an aluminum sleeve which is permanent but is a little heavier. Lastly we can give everyone their money back and go on with other things.

I am going to spend the weekend thinking about it. I will be reading any feedback here.

AGD

[FooTemps]

It's ok tom... I'm workin over the weekend too...

I think you should try to get somethin that will hold up for a bit and then work harder on other stuff.

[DaXtremeist]

wow thats unfortunate. was looking forward to this. but i understand the position of flaws coming around with a new style bolt.

[Royal Assassin]

MMmmm well this sucks. I just won mine... damnit! I was realy looking forward to getting this. The first thing I win and they take it back...... oh well I still like ya'll.

Royal Assassin

[Paintchucker]

Field Testing...

I still have mine. It has been boiled now, but I haven't shot it. I am getting a new EMAG on Saturday. Oh my, that's today!!! I will try the new bolt in the new gun, making sure to shoot more than the 500 shot point that seems to be the break mark. I will post my results later.

[DaXtremeist]

just wondering but for 1 im not sure what the sleeve is made out of. if its 100% delerin or delerin fibers wich to me is what it sorta looks like in the pictures. if it is the fibers im asuming they run up and down longways on the bolt. if you were to alternate the fibers anyways to run vertical for like 1/4" then horizontal for another 1/4" wouldn't that make it so that it cannot be cracked.

or even more support you could make 1 layer the alternated 1/4" horizontal and 1/4" vertical with another layer of vertical delerin fibers over it reinforcing it.

not sure if its posible with what you are currently using to make the bolts.

hrmm another way would to insert aluminum rings inside the delerin.

i do know that the delerin sleve is thin but it could be done.

DaX

[Minimag4me]

mine works fine right now and i wont want to give it up, but if i keep and they are discontinued there will be no way to get new sleves so that not good either. Maybe aluminum is the way to go. Possibly annodised aluminum(i liked the black bolt)? Maybe make aluminum and delrin available so you can switch between the two somehow(aluminum backup)?

[X-Plosive]

I think you should forget about it. With the SS long nose I never noticed recoil and I have never heard anyone complain about the recoil on my gun. I would really like to move on so that we can concentrate on better things like the return of the z-grip if we have enough preorders. I would also like to see the online store expand. I really like the things you have done with warps, maybe you can focus on flashy coloring and milling for SFL's or is that AGDE's job? What ever happened to the Minimag project?

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Well..i've had one for a while..i boiled the sucker anyways and after like 5 shots the sucker got stuck in the barrel and then when i pulled it out the delrin sleeve popped right off of the bolt portion..i didn't place it back on because i wasn't sure if it would be as strong as it was originally..i'd say go with the aluminium version..it may gain a little bit of weight but it would also weigh less than the stock bolt...and if you wanted us to return them, i'd be more than happy to put my fifty bucks towards the iZ-Grip...


update: I popped the sucker back on but it spins like mad...i put the stock bolt back in my ReTro Minimag..so she's all good anyways...

[damageinc54]

Put the bolts on the back burner and give us our money back. I am not even using mine since all of this started. When I did use it I did not notice any difference except that the superbolt broke a lot more paint in my EMag than my longnose bolt. I also did not notice any difference in the guns kick. It felt the same to me with both bolts. Get the 4500 flatlines out so I can buy one of those.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I must say i agree with Damage..i'd say put the Superbolts on the backburner for the time being...maybe they were rushed..maybe not..but i'd take them off the priority list..remember the list you started when you said that you'd put the Z-Grips back in production...instead of having the Bolt at the top of the list..move it down to number 3 or 4 or even move it to the bottom..give yourself some time..maybe one day in the not to distant future you'll have epiphany and you'll figure out how to improve it..but don't try so hard..we know you want all of this stuff to work..but sometimes stuff takes longer than we want it to..and time is something we all have...

here's Tom's list from everyone that can't remember!!

Time Frame:

Before we can even think about redesigning the Z-Grip I have to,
Finish the 4500
Rework the mold on the nubbins
Get the Superbolts into smooth production
Design the ACE system
Rework the Extreme bodies for the ACE
Redesign the Warp Feed Module for the Extreme
Gun Dyno the power tube tips with the Superbolt
Get the Extreme into production
Verify the mold fixes in the Warp diverter plate and adaptors
Get the AGD store photos and descriptions done for ALL our parts and products

[BlackVCG]

Aluminum, aluminum, aluminum, aluminum...

Okay, 3 test bolts went out, one broke. But these were FIXED bolts. What about the early prototype bolts, do those have the barbs on the base that hold the sleeve on along with press fitting of the sleeve? You figured that the two methods combined were causing the sleeve to expand too much and crack.

I said in an earlier thread on this issue that I figure the current cupped faces are breaking because you have the cup face attached to the sleeve and by press fitting the sleeve you're expanding it and it's going outwards pulling on the cupped face. The cupped face doesn't want to expand, so it breaks at the three points it's attached to the sleeve.

Have ANY bolts that were originally foamie sleeves from the beginning that have not gone through boiling and drilling out the cupped face been reported back broke?

Aluminum is the practical solution, but will the added weight make it feel more like the stock bolt?

Royal Assassin- You'll still get a superbolt, but if they decide to discontinue them, you'll get something else from AGD of an equal value. We won't leave you out in the cold.

[Phil]

My superbolt, which I returned (RA-85904) and you should have now, did not crack up the side. The entire tip broke completely off. I noticed that it broke at the point where the metal part of the bolt stopped. It seems like the plastic alone cant tolerate the stress. It is probably only a matter of time before the others break. I will be happy with whatever you guys decide to do to fix the problem.

[zads27]

Hey Tom, How about some specs on the aluminum?
Like.. How much it would weigh vs. the SS Long Nose vs. the delrin sleeve, to give us an idea as to what we're looking at. Also, what would the wear characteristics (real specs would be nice, but probably would have to be theoretical) be of the aluminum sleeve?

Or, though I know you may be reluctant to try these because of possible costs (more time+money)..
I was thinking about the superbolt and all, but how about:

'Reversing' the bolt sleeve? Putting the delrin on the the inside of the bolt, and leaving a SS outside, around the outside of the bolt to handle the bolt spring and stress of rapidly entering/exiting the barrel/breach.. putting delrin on the bolt where it goes over the valve powertube, and down the center of the bolt's powertube area..

Perhaps a shorter delrin sleeve, instead of going the full length of the bolt, would have less stress put upon it?

Just some rambles, tell me what you think.

[Shaft]

I personally would like my money back for the bolt and the sleeve that I ordered - but have yet to received. I haven't put my superbolt back in since the announcement of the recall and have no reason to.

The performance improvement was nill to none to begin with.

I would consider trading the two items for some merchandise. Such as an upgrade on my flatline?!?