FYI: Beretta USA and PepperBall Technologies, Inc Form Strategic Alliance...

[Lohman446]

I am not telling you that you are mistaken. I am just happy that I can still recite that from memory after being on shore duty for 3 years.

It is good, and I didn't take it as such. Obviously each state has different statutes about when deadly force can be applied and it is a pretty good idea, when considering arming yourself (with anything) to know that statutes around its use in your state.

[CodeMA]

I dont know about the use of pepperballs by civilians, it COULD pose a problem....then again lets look at guns, live ammunition, and tasers, etc already used at such.... there wont be much of a diffrence in the laws conserning there use incorrectly/mal intent, etc I can only assume.....


Now... on to something that crossed my mind yesterday... We had a chase speed through my little town here....and I hada half case of Ultra Evil sitting for couple weeks now for the proper time to use such a nasty thick paint... Drilling someones face with no mask, not likely a good thing in the way of less then lethal(would deffently stop a home invador though putting 15-20bps into there grill/eyes throat at a sustained rate...ya) Anyway, what about putting that kinda thick paint into use... I know they tried to use shottys to stop the car once it entered my county(of which Im basicly right on the border) and couldnt due to not having a clear shot incase they missed...... but what if they could post up and throw up all over the windsheild? I know for a fact Ultra Evil cant simply be whiped away by a windsheild wiper... Would take a lot of cleaning fluid to make the windsheild remotely clear again.... and deffently allow some spikes to be properly used... Just a thought... Would deffently freak them out at the very least...

[Lohman446]

Drilling someones face with no mask, not likely a good thing in the way of less then lethal(would deffently stop a home invador though putting 15-20bps into there grill/eyes throat at a sustained rate...ya)

There are case studies done by the FBI and various police agencies that would indicate inflicting pain often does not stop an agressor - these are studies based on less than effective firearm usage where a wounded individual fougth back successfully. Unless you are blinding them and making that agression inneffective you are very likely mistaken. Pain against a determined attacker, or one "chemically enhanced" may not be as effective at stopping an attack as you would beleive.

You illustrate my point though. If you are going to resist, and I beleive you should, you need to realistically be ready to resist effectively. Training dictates, even with my .45 that the minimum number of times I am going to shoot someone, should it come to it, is three. The number is chosen for legal reasons balanced against known stopping power of the .45 and the ammunition I use. People are going to look at these, think "I can throw a few balls at an attacker and he will stop". While this may be true in many situations, once you have begun to resist you have made a gamble, and you have committed to winning - at whatever costs for your safety as well as the safety of those around you. Shooting an aggressor with a paintball gun is likely going to get you killed or seriously injured... I do not debate the strengths of pepperballs, I support there use by the police. I am highly concenred about civilian use where people will see these as a great solution. Will they stop many people, in fact possibly most - they very well may do that. Are they going to stop determined attackers.. maybe, maybe not. Will the people who use these be prepared to take it to the next level of force, or have time to do it if they fail - I do not expect so. If the situation leaves me in a position to use a weapon... I am going to use the most effective weapon I have at my disposal and not something meant for police to use for crowd or individual control. Recall my duties, my responsibilities differ from a police officer, so do my rights and duties to escalation of force. Couple these with a concern about these things for malicious acts and I simply do not support there civilian sale. Its an odd position, considering you can probably guess that I strongly support the right to keep and bear arms without government interference, and i realize the hypocrisy in it, but it is a considered view. I do not support the government restricting them, but I do not beleive it is responsible manufacturing or marketing to market them to civilians.

[hitech]

Assuming these become available, yes, there will be those who get these and will not be able to use them responsibly. There will be cases where they are not effective and where they make the situation worse. However, I do not believe that will happen in my case. I also don't believe it will happen in most cases. Why shouldn't the choice be ours?

Also, all those same problems occur today with firearms. Should the general public not be allowed to have those?

I do not have the option of a .45 for a personal carry weapon. I don't have the option of any firearm for a personal carry weapon. A shotgun is not an option for me at home. Why shouldn't I have this option?

And yes, everyone should understand what the use of deadly force entails. Providing a well-written book on the use of deadly force and what this weapon is capable of (and not capable of) should be required, if not an actual training course.

Under Michigan law, using that pepperball gun would very likely be considered using deadly force - as the law stands if I pull the trigger on a firearm... I have, under the law, employed deadly force whether I intend to or succeed at killing anyone or not.

It would only be considered the use of deadly force IF pepperball guns are deemed firearms. In most other states I believe they would not, even the dreaded California.

[hitech]

... I am going to use the most effective weapon I have at my disposal...

I want the most effective weapon also. And for me, in most situations that will be a pepperball gun.

[Lohman446]

It would only be considered the use of deadly force IF pepperball guns are deemed firearms. In most other states I believe they would not, even the dreaded California.

True.. of some states. But they are definetly firearms by the law, as written, in Michigan. Then again, so are paintball markers and I have not seen anyone prosecuted because of one being considered a firearm. Of course I realize that the Michigan law is antiquated, and most states have much better definitions of firearms. And you did say most.. so I am not in anyway trying to say you were wrong, just pointing out, where I live, they are firearms by legal definitions.

8.3T "Firearm" defined
Sec. 3t. the word "firearm", except as otherwise specifically defined in the statutes, shall be construed to include any weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas, or air as a means of propulsion, except any smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB's not exceeding .177 calibre by means of spring, gas, or air.

[Lohman446]

There will be cases where they are not effective and where they make the situation worse. However, I do not believe that will happen in my case. I also don't believe it will happen in most cases. Why shouldn't the choice be ours?

I told you there was distinct hypocrisy in my statement. The NRA claims "any gun" is better than no gun. I question that. Carrying a .25 pistol is likely not going to do you any good, is going to escalate a situation, and likely nto be able to stop it if it should need to be used (past brandishment). I am statistically backed on that statement.

The concern on my part is that the effectiveness of these are over considered - I question how effective a civilian version will be if used properly, let alone if used incorrectly. Remember most people who carry firearms fail to use them well - studies indicate that police officers engaged in actual (non-training) firefights at fourteen feet and less only hit 20% of the time - and thats trained officers at minimal range with full size equipment. The question of effectiveness can be considered after that. I don't have data, or even prototype information though for this system... its effectiveness is a place of concern where perhaps we disagree. I admit readily that I may very well be underestimating the effectivness of these things though and you may be very right.

Your right... it is certainly not my place to say what the appropriate measures for you, or anyone else to take are. The choice should be left up to each individual and made off a well researched consideration of there needs and willingness to use - a .45 does you no good if you will not shoot someone for moral reasons. Its not my place to try to dictate what the right answer for other people, in situations different then mine, is.

[FaSSt]

[QUOTE=Lohman446]
I told you there was distinct hypocrisy in my statement. The NRA claims "any gun" is better than no gun. I question that. Carrying a .25 pistol is likely not going to do you any good, is going to escalate a situation, and likely nto be able to stop it if it should need to be used (past brandishment). I am statistically backed on that statement.QUOTE]

Not true at all. Even .22s have been used very effectively, and have a deterrence factor. You are right, however, in saying that there are many factors that can affect a situation, and you are again right in asserting that mindset is key. Anyway, pepperballs are another tool that should be available at the discretion of the user, just like all of the other lethal and less-than-lethal tools out there. Rather than registration, which I loathe, make the caliber something other than .68. Larger is better in this case, so as to increase payload and range and decrease the chance of penetration.

[Muzikman]

Lohman, I have a very interesting question. Have you ever been put into a life threating situation? Have you ever had to use deadly force? Do you know how hard it is to actually shoot someone? How about the person carrying the real gun, needs to use deadly force and gets scared, shaking, nervous and misses his intended target and hits the 9yo kid a block away by acident. Unless the attacker is hopped up on drugs, a few pepperballs to the chest will stop someone pretty quick or atleast slow them down and prevent them from seeing, giving you enough to to get away.

Do pepper balls look like a better idea yet?

[Muzikman]

Lohman, I also have a question, what the hell kind of attackers do you have in your area. Are these guys/gals superman? I mean if someone wants my wallet and I shoot them with a .25 or even a pepperball couple times, i think they will give up on the idea of needing my wallet. I live in an area where shootings are more common than I would like, and a pepperball gun would not protect me from being a victim of one of these, but I doubt a real gun would either as the majority are accidental shootings or supprise shootings. But I am pretty sure it would help with the guy that decided to just come up and give me a hard time or want one of my posessions.

[Lohman446]

I'm in a unique situation. No I have not ever had to use deadly force, and I pray that I am never asked to. I realize the use of deadly force is not simply done, and that most people (even trained police officers) do miss there intended target. I would hope that I would not and actually practice with my gun at least twice a month.

My unique sitation... I have a black belt in Kenpo, I have trained, intensively, on tactics against multiple and armed opponents. I have made decisions in my own mind about when I would use deadly force, and when I would use less than deadly force. That decision made, and of the mindset that I am prepared to use deadly force (you would be amazed how many people carry wtihout ever actually considering if they would use deadly force - which may account for some of the stress in its use) in those situations. I beleive I am capable of responding to all but the most serious threats with less than deadly force. I may be wrong...

I can look back at numerous balistic and case studies of shootings were a small caliber weapon proved to be inneffective. Guess what, there are even some where larger caliber weapons proved ineffective. Obviously one is more prevasive than another.

Your target, and the background, should always be considered when employing deadly force and your example is well considered. The damage that one of these pepperballs can inflict on a bystander should nto be taken lightly, of course it is not as serious as a bullet (in general, the Boston case a shining recent exception).

And before I get into this "big caliber" nut category. There is hypocrisy here as well. Come summer I may very well switch down to a smaller gun - the .32 NAA Guardian is showing extremly good balistic performance in a small caliber, light package - it just uses a specialty round.

As for attackers in my area. Considering the variabilities of things it is likely that the person I would use deadly force against is a very capable person, in reasonable shape, and of reasonable size - or well armed. Otherwise they have shown an unacceptable determination and represent, after repeated attempts to lessen it, and immediate and serious danger to inflict great bodily harm. In these cases I want the most effective weapon that I can, with other considerations, reasonably carry. Perhaps this is not true of most attackers.

Hitech is more right than I am here - the use of force, at whatever level, is an individual decision. It is based on factors too great to be names, religious, moral, availability, ability, etc. It is impossible for me to tell you what is right for each of your circumstances, or to presume to know. In answer to the question - I beleive that I am ready to use deadly force, should the need arise.. and I pray that I never have to

PS - I live in a very rural area, with very minimal crime (in two towns I think there were like half a dozen homicides in the past ten years). However, I would hate to think that relative safety would lull me into beleiving the worst could not happen. I would hate to think that the one time that "taught me to be ready" would ever happen. I realize it may sound paranoid, and it may be. However, I beleive my position, with the considerations around me, is reasonable.

[FaSSt]

Lohman, I have a very interesting question. Have you ever been put into a life threating situation? Have you ever had to use deadly force? Do you know how hard it is to actually shoot someone? How about the person carrying the real gun, needs to use deadly force and gets scared, shaking, nervous and misses his intended target and hits the 9yo kid a block away by acident. Unless the attacker is hopped up on drugs, a few pepperballs to the chest will stop someone pretty quick or atleast slow them down and prevent them from seeing, giving you enough to to get away.

Do pepper balls look like a better idea yet?

Peppper balls might be a complement to firearms, not a replacement for them. Muzikman, , respectfully, you have no idea what's out there.

Remember, we are not dealing with averages. On an "average" day, you can probably leave your door unlocked, your keys in the ignition, and your wallet in an unsecured pocket on a busy street. "On average", nothing will happen. It is precisely the outliers we are talking about, not the averages. These exceptions are the intances that have a small chance of happening, but are severe if and when they do happen. Basically, the same concept as purchasing insurance. You should probably be prepared, and should certainly not deprive others of the right to self defense.

Lohman, I hear you about concealability, but what "specialty" round out of a .32 can make it truly and CONSISTENTLY effective (to your earlier point)? If you live in a rural area, especially, I would also keep a carbine or rifle in the trunk.

[Muzikman]

You also have to remember that the Boston insident was not your normal pepper ball. The round used in Boston was from an FN303. These rounds are 3 times heavier than a normal pepper / paintball and have a much greater range and accuracy.

[hitech]

Your target, and the background, should always be considered when employing... force and your example is well considered.

I think this illustrates one of the biggest advantages of pepperball guns. You don't have to worry about shooting through the wall of you house and hitting someone. Effective backstops are far more common.

And it is possible that a pepperball gun would be more effective that a .25. Depending, a .25 would not cause enough damage or pain to stop someone. However, a pepperball could certainly render someone temporarily blind, making their advance far less effective. The have certainly worked well for cops against those not armed with firearms. And I don't for a minute think these would be effective against someone with a firearm.




* Emphasis added.

[Lohman446]

Lohman, I hear you about concealability, but what "specialty" round out of
a .32 can make it truly and CONSISTENTLY effective (to your earlier point)? If you live in a rural area, especially, I would also keep a carbine or rifle in the trunk.

The .32 NAA round has remarkable power for its size

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/32_0924/

The .32 NAA is based on a full-length .380 ACP case. Measuring .680 inches in length, the little hot rod features a short neck that is designed to securely hold a 60-grain .32 caliber JHP.

Typical of Cor-Bon loads, the .32 NAA round is designed for serious business. Launching a 60-grain JHP bullet, Cor-Bon predicted 1,200 fps and 192 ft-lbs of energy and the combination exceeded Cor-Bon's predictions. Twenty rounds averaged a blistering 1,204-fps with an extreme spread of 69 fps and a standard deviation of 19 fps on the Oehler 35P. The combination accounted for 193.09 ft-lbs of energy.

I don't generally like small caliper handguns, this one appears extremely effective judging it against other things - like a 9MM. Its a compromise... less power for easier carry. I know a concealed gun is supposed to eb comforting, not comfortable but.. its a compromise I may decide to make.

And in Michigan they issue concealed pistol liscenses. To carry (with exceptions for hunting, range, etc) a carbine one would have to have the nearly unobtainable concealed weapons permit. They do not issue these, or have not, sense the CPL liscense was introduced.