At what point does higher BPS fail to give a tangible advantage

[Lohman446]

Its being discussed in another thread, that gaining more BPS over what we have now may be of little strategic value. I decided to start its own discussion because it has some possibility for discussion, and I get really confused when trying to discuss too many things in a single thread The idea came out first from Shartley - it was not mine After considering it I beleive we have passed the point, I see little strategic advantage in shooting over 10BPS - now I understand that snap shooting its better to put more out there, but how many more? At what point does 3 paintballs do as well as 4, or 4 as 5, etc. Theres an argument here about the mroe the better for breakage reasons... and its a valid argument but does that theory become of negligible value at some point?

I ask you this, is there a point where the benefits of another BPS are so minor as to have nearly no strategic value? Have we passed it already? I feel we have. Thoughts, discussion?

[MadPSIence]

after about 14bps I'd say it's just a retarded waste of paint.

[CKY_Alliance]

Me and a guy in the shop yesterday were talking about this (along with the ramping issues etc..) I think 15 bps is more than enough.The point of shooting fast is to pin people down and controll lanes and to just shoot people out.Well 15 bps is more than enough for this since i dotn think anyone is gonna run through a stream of paint goin at 15bps or even 10 for that matter so i dont see how shooting 30 bps is any more efficient than shooting 15 bps when 15 will accomplish the same thing and save you some paint/money.
Now i see how shooting 30 bps will give you more chances of a ball breaking but a constant stream of 10 to 15 will give you this same chance. when shooting 15bps and 30 (with ramping obviously) will prolly take about the same time.The more i think about it the less since shooting double the amount makes.30 bps wont accomplish anyting a 10-15 bps consitant stream wont achieve in my opinion.And anyone shooting 30 bps prolly isnt snap shooting there prolly shooting constantly when a person shotting 15 wcan do the same thing.

Ummm...my thoughts arent very organized hope you all comprehend what i am saying.

(o yea i used 15bps since that the new limit in some series)

[Evil Bob]

The BPS race becomes a detriment when you're spending more time reloading then you are shooting. Solders stuck reloading are not really contributing to combat. The more weapons you have pointed at the emeny, the better your chances of winning.

Take the M16 for example, it has a cyclic rate of 600-800 rounds per min, that's 10-13.3 rounds per second sustained fire. At that rate, it takes only 3 seconds to empty a 30 round magazine and 9 seconds to empty a 90 round drum magazine.

Logistics to a battle is important to determine how long you can realisticly "stay in the fight". Based upon that goal of sustained battle, the US military switched over from the full auto M16A1 to the 3 round burst M16A2 because they found that solders under heavy stress were blowing through too much ammo too quickly and being generally less effective with spray and pray firing. In fact the military today stresses using semi auto more then burst mode and would prefer that you put your rounds into your targets one at a time. Burst is usually reserved for room clearing where you wont necessarily have a clean sight picture and time is of the essence.

Another consideration was the fact that your average solder only carries so much ammo, usually 150-180 rounds of ammo on them loaded in magazines (7 or 8 magazines, 30 rounds per mag), the rest is usually in small boxes in bandoliers which take considerable time to load into the individual magazines, something you definitely dont want to be doing under fire. So todays solders are taught straight from basic training to conserve their ammo and fire only what they need to get the job done.

-Evil Bob

[MadPSIence]

let's acknowledge modern paintball players would receive an *** kicking if they had been the ones in vietnam

[68magOwner]

meh, practicing with PSP rampers, i can run through a lane of 15bps otb preety consistently, where as this is sometimes harder playing semi (espicially since alot of local players have adopted "breakout" mode while playing "semi" ) so, in my opinion, bps all the way up to 50+ would be an advantage off the break (if you could almost ensure hitting the runner 100% of the time although rof like that would ruin the game, it could still hepl blow people away otb, but, besided off the break, anything over 15 really isnt needed.

[master_alexander]

from my point of view...

15+ bps is rediciolus, can tell that much of a difference...

if you shoot too fast, you depend on it and not skill, you are not a good player. so use a pump every once and a while, just for A "reality" check (so to speek).

but it might help to shoot fast if you need to shoot through a hole far away, you can see where you shots went and so on and so forth...

[Codekevin0403]

IMO i think it'd be pretty cool just to go on the field with pumps. Personally, i think it's more of an adrenaline rush then standing behind a bunker and shooting till you run out of paint. Which is kinda what paintball has become if you think about it. but i don't really care about bps, personally i truly don't even need over 8 bps, but if somebody wants to shoot 30bps down a lane so i can't run through it, eh, what am i gunna do about it. Anyways, it's just a faster way to run out of paint.

[68magOwner]

Anyways, it's just a faster way to run out of paint.

....people who shoot fast typicially develop some kind of rof control/paint conservation, its not just mindless hammering of a trigger (there are acceptions, people who just shoot and run their hoppers dry for no apparent reason at all)


anyway, i do shoot fast, as fast if not faster than most of the guys at all teh local fields, in fact, my entire team has very quick markers/fingers, and it is rare that even one of us will use more than 2 pods per game (most average 1 pod per game, but, whatever) if we need to shoot a lane/ shoot fast to hit someone, we do that, but we use high ROF very objectively, not just railing at someones bunekr hoping that they will stick there face out right into it. And as the team which uses the least paint on most occasions, we are ranked #1 in almost every league we are in right now. And yes, like you said, we all like to go play with pumps occasionally (i plan on rocking a phantom at this weekends practice) and i see where your comming thinking that high rof is typicially not needed, because we have practiced teams and done things such as cap our markers at a very low bps (~5 or so) and still done well, but, there is no arguing that high rof can be/is a huge asset in your over all game. As long as you dont let rof become a crutch for you, i see no problem wiht it.

[MedicDVG]

Ok... I did a little math (which is probably wrong) and I came up with the following.

Basically, I wanted to see if I could calculate the distance between paintballs at different ROF assuming the same FPS (in this case 300 fps.)

I came up with this:

50 BPS = 6 ft
30 BPS = 9 Ft
26 BPS = 11.4 Ft
24 BPS = 12.4 Ft
22 BPS = 13.5 Ft
20 BPS = 15 Ft
17 BPS = 17.5 Ft
12 BPS = 24.9 Ft
10 BPS = 30 Ft

Now what does this in actuality prove besides it being a very slow night at the stationshouse?? Well, for me it puts some slight perspective on what is physically happening in flight. Is it particularly usefull in this discussion? Hell I don't know -- I was impressed that I could remember basic algebra to come to these conclusions.

I guess for me, it defines what the "sporting chance" my opponant may have and the degree of skill I need to actually eliminate them.

I am not a huge fan of huge ROF anyway for purely economic reasons (I am poor), but I am certainly not a huge fan of just making every marker the fastest machinegun out there as well.

Well take the data for what you will.. I now have a headache and am in search of some Tylenol.

[Head knight of Ni]

The effectiveness is ever increasing as the ROF increases. How? Intimidation factor. Why do you think people love debounce or ramping they can scare noobs into a self defeatist attitude. No ones ever sold ugly slow markers well in the tourney scene either. As long as the "newest feature" can pad the players self esteem it will become popular and effective by association.

[RRfireblade]

I still find it odd that it is apparently unfathomable to 'some' that it's possible to use the advantage of a high ROF and be completely effective, accurate on target and not have an excessive waste paint.

The mentallity that so many people have that a high ROF must = spray and pray is amazing to me.

Here are the only questions I'd like to see answered:


Why am 'I' obsessed with how fast everyone else shoots? Especially when I think it's doesn't help there game?

Why am 'I' concerned with what people beside myself enjoy about the sport?

Why do 'I' care so much about the amount of $$ other people are willing to spend to enjoy themselves?

Why am 'I' bothered that there are people with different points of view than me?

Why do I feel the need to belittle others who 'I' feel aren't "doing it my way"?

Why do I need to seek out the approval of others to validate my own opinions?

That's enuff for now.

[shartley]

I still find it odd that it is apparently unfathomable to 'some' that it's possible to use the advantage of a high ROF and be completely effective, accurate on target and not have an excessive waste paint.

The mentallity that so many people have that a high ROF must = spray and pray is amazing to me.

Here are the only questions I'd like to see answered:


Why am 'I' obsessed with how fast everyone else shoots? Especially when I think it's doesn't help there game?

Why am 'I' concerned with what people beside myself enjoy about the sport?

Why do 'I' care so much about the amount of $$ other people are willing to spend to enjoy themselves?

Why am 'I' bothered that there are people with different points of view than me?

Why do I feel the need to belittle others who 'I' feel aren't "doing it my way"?

Why do I need to seek out the approval of others to validate my own opinions?

That's enuff for now.

I think you are correct. However, to think that MOST players actually use the advantages of high ROFs while still showing the degree of accuracy and without dumping paint would be folly. It does not mean it can't be done, isn't being done, or that it shouldn't be done though.

You may want to check out this post if you have not already... It addresses these very same issues:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1900341&postcount=14

[RRfireblade]

:)

I think you are correct. However, to think that MOST players actually use the advantages of high ROFs while still showing the degree of accuracy and without dumping paint would be folly. It does not mean it can't be done, isn't being done, or that it shouldn't be done though.

Sure, it's also true that most players are young, have ALOT to learn about the game, are mesmerized by hype induced advertising and are playing in the woods w/ Spyders and tippmmans.

It's true, BTW, that 'most' golfers couldn't break a hundered if their life depended on it even after extrensive lessons and classes.

It's true that I couldn't catch a singing fish with a pole if I had a magic rod and was fishing in a Disney cartoon.(FYI, I'm a lousy fisherman incase I went to far on that last one )

But that doesn't prove the point. 'Most' players aren't very accurate regardless of ROF. Handing them a ramping DM5 isn't going to change that, niether is droppping the cap to 10bps.

It just seeem that the people who complain the most about a high ROF are the people who can't obtain it, therefore it 'must' be useless, a waste and serve no purpose.

That's simply not true and IMO with all other things being equal the abilty to reach a higher ROF will always be an advantage over a comparably lower ROF.

[CrimsonGhost]

Well put RR!!!!

To my mind...the advantage for bps stops being worth it when the paint starts to run into itself midstream.(can't happen? ...WRONG ...look at the current fps variences in regs +/- 3-7 fps on a good reg.Not to mention paint variations and such)

The point of a higher bps is to fill the air with as much paint as humanly possible, thus rendering a particular area "unsafe" to pass through.

Take your marker and "aim" it at a point in space , now move it left or right and count "1" . Now, once you hit the "1" count stop moving the marker.
Note the distance your barrel has covered in that 1 count.
Most people its a fair amount of space between the start point and end point. Now, think of it on an airball field , makes the space between the 2 points seem even larger...esp. if you look at the "zone" between those 2 points and take that from the back of you field to the other side of the field. or from the back to the 50.


Now...put paint into the space you moved that barrel.
Use the calculations provided above and think of how much paint is filling said space.

Yes, I know it will be argued that anything past 12-15 bps is highly suspect with a true semi only board and average "meat" behind the trigger.

But if you can imagine the difference between say, 10 bps in the air in that space and say 20 bps or even higher I think you will see where the advantage of high rates of fire comes in.

Area denial.

Paint in the air = Possible eliminations ... the thinking of the more paint in the air = more chances of eliminations.
Yes, it only takes 1 well aimed , practiced shot to get an elimination.

If I can put you into your bunker for a longer period of time with the high bps It give myself or my team a moment to angle you out , or position to do more damage.
Not saying is cant be done with 1 shots...just saying ...keeping you in with a higher bps is ALOT easier.Isnt that the ultimate point of a tool?
You still need skill do make eliminations with the above scenario.

But ...if we want to use the combat sceanrio / military weapons thinking stated above...
Why aren't all of our troops issued sniper weapons and just taught to shoot that way?
Besides the $$$ issues and equipment issues ...
Right, victory by volume, area denial, and maximum exertion of force.
A Sniper is a surgical tool.
You dont use a scalpel in a sword fight.
You dont use a Claymore to do heart valve bypass (though that would be cool!!)

Different tools for different jobs.

I think thats the issue at hand....20 bps ramping has NO PLACE in rec play. Wrong tool for the wrong job.
Or ...think an m1a1 Abrams tank ...on a dove hunt.(ANOTHER COOL!!)
On the Tour scene ...different story.