You know what, what about an electro Frame from AGD.

[Lohman446]

Well if there is a ton of problems with lawsuits, puting an electro frame out for a mag then lend me some history and teach me whos in the way.

PVI had this patent that had been sitting in the works that was basically the mother of all elector paintball patents, SP got hold of it, modified it, and pushed it through - in addition to at least one more patent that was pretty solid dealing with electronic markers. Legal issues have brought an odd "ownership" of that patent involving a failure to sign a work produce agreement by Dr. Hischel (sp) when he was a major contributor to the electro gun at PVI. WDP has purchased those rights from Dr Hischel and the courts have, for now, determined that SP and WDP share joint rights to that patent. Noone knows for sure it seems how this will turn out. The rumor is that SP will sell you rights for a licensing fee (rumored to be a million dollars plus a royalty fee per marker sold). WDP will also let you on the the licensing for the low low bargain price of $50K (again, according to rumor). Of course, this does not address distributing it, or the product liability insurance you will want to cover, production costs, or general overhead in starting a business. Of course, if what you make in anyway seems to resemble or bring to mind anything autococker (TM) related expect a call from K2s lawyers.

I suggest a business and business law class to give you an idea of what is in the way. The paintball industry is murky as it is.

Edit: This is from a limited understanding from an outsiders point of view, I do not know the inside reasonings and those who make / made the decisions likely know more than I do.

[warbeak2099]

Seeing as the patent doesn't cover frames, I too would like to see a more mainstream e-frame for mags. I'd like to see a company with some manufactoring power pump out a mag version of the e2 eblade. Basically an e-frame with eyes, ramping, and maybe even an opto switch like the eblade that all costs around $350. But, all we have are two custom dealers (Logic and GADevil) making their frames for each customer and with a pretty long wait. Because of this they aren't readily available and they cost $425+. They are amazing frames though. If GADevil or Coolhand had the capability to crank them out like Eclipse puts out eblades, we'd be golden. Coupled with a partnership with AGD and you'd have tourny worthy mags readily available. That'd get AGD back into the tourny scene and disprove the bad PR and myths that claim mags are too slow. For now, all we have are mech mags and if we want to make them fast enough to compete we either have to:

Spend a lot of money
Wait a long time
Buy something used (hyperframe, e/xmag lowers, mako/booh-yahh elcd, etc)
Rig something up ourselves

Oh well, ya gotta have mass production power to break away from the niche market. sadly, neither AGD nor their dealers have that. So I don't see a readily available mag eframe coming out any time soon. Which is why some of us have done our own thing (I PROMISE I WILL POST PICS AND POSSIBLY A VID WHEN IT'S DONE!!!)...

[Lohman446]

My understanding is the patent(s) cover any electronic means of firing a paintball marker, including frames. COnsidering Planet Eclipse supposedly settled before the EGO was released I expect frames were covered by it. I'm not patent attorney but from what I saw the patent was directed towards electronics firing markers, and would include frames

[rifleman]

Actually... welcome to 2001

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4590&highlight=economy

[ShocktoSanity]

Well then..... Thank you all for shedding lite on this, educated I wanted educated I was.

Oh well and I've heard about the pneu mag problems this really just kinda sucks ohwell.
No wonder AGD hasn't really put out anything new they are buried under a bunch of legal Bull.

[Vex]

Okay, what I don't understand is: If every electo manufacturer has to pay a royalty and licensing fee to WDP/SP, then how can there be so many electros on the market at such various prices?
I don't get it, because it doesn't make sense. The market is virtually saturated with e-markers; and every manufacturer has to pay one or both companies??
It doesn't add up. You would think that there would only be WDP/SP markers out, with maybe one or two more. There are lots of different brands out, and I seriously doubt that they can afford to pay $1 million or even $50k + royalties.

Again; it doesn't add up...

[Lohman446]

Okay, what I don't understand is: If every electo manufacturer has to pay a royalty and licensing fee to WDP/SP, then how can there be so many electros on the market at such various prices?
I don't get it, because it doesn't make sense. The market is virtually saturated with e-markers; and every manufacturer has to pay one or both companies??
It doesn't add up. You would think that there would only be WDP/SP markers out, with maybe one or two more. There are lots of different brands out, and I seriously doubt that they can afford to pay $1 million or even $50k + royalties.

Again; it doesn't add up...

Alright, let's spell this out to the people who just don't beleive it.

Neither SP nor WDP have sued Kingman / Brass Eagle / or JT that I know of

SP sent a cease and desist order to AKA - and then carried forward. AKA has quit producing electronic markers and is limited to selling "existing" stock.\

Dye settled with SP - the rumor was a trade of the Spool valve technology used in the Shocker for electronics used in the Matrix.

NPS (BLAST - Intimidaters) - settled with SP.

Planet Eclipse reached an agreement with SP.

PMI reached an agreement with SP.

How many other major electro manufacturers are out there?

[billmi]

My understanding is the patent(s) cover any electronic means of firing a paintball marker, including frames. COnsidering Planet Eclipse supposedly settled before the EGO was released I expect frames were covered by it. I'm not patent attorney but from what I saw the patent was directed towards electronics firing markers, and would include frames

If this is true, then why is the market full of paintguns that use solenoids in the grip frames to trip sears, without being licensed by Smart Parts, and by companies that have never been sued by Smart Parts?

All of SP's suits have involved designs using solenoid valves to actuate pneumatically controlled valve systems.

[Lohman446]

If this is true, then why is the market full of paintguns that use solenoids in the grip frames to trip sears, without being licensed by Smart Parts, and by companies that have never been sued by Smart Parts?

All of SP's suits have involved designs using solenoid valves to actuate pneumatically controlled valve systems.

Smart Parts "communicated" with TK that they felt the E-mag was in violation.

I have no clue how the Viking works....

Frankly Kingman and BE represent a portion of the market I doubt SP cares about, and are a very dangerous target to sue - they are probably going to represent a long contest to fight.

Edit: Oh yeh, and there is always the distinct possibility that I'm wrong. I do have a distinctly limited knowledge from being outside of the industry and not being part of many of the conversations held at top levels of the various manufacturers.

[Vex]

Alright, let's spell this out to the people who just don't beleive it.

It's not a matter of NOT believing, it's a matter of it not all adding up. Like Bill Mills stated, there are a lot of guns that use solenoids to trip the sear--they aren't all settling with/paying SP--there are companies that can't afford to, yet they're making guns.

[MadPSIence]

even if AGD made a new E-frame I doubt it could touch on what Logic is putting out in the coming weeks...

seriously,,, a solid electro-pneumatic operation built with awesome guts and a predator board. magnetic roller bearing trigger..

c'mon that's heaven.