Redefining AGD

[GT]

You know these are all good ideas but there is just too many hurtles to get over. Licensing, research and development investment, cost of parts, marketing dollars and at the end of the day there needs to be a profit so you can do it all again.
Thanks,

AGD

I will add a few of my concerns that i have seen over the last few years that are troubling to say the lest.

Short to medium term changes, possibly low investment actvities:

1. Under cutting the dealers. This is probally one of the bigest problems at AGD. It is hard enough to sell some AGD products at the local level, however it makes it impossible when the manufacture sells the product cheaper than the dealer. To me, this is the big sin. So -why sell a product that someone can get cheaper factory direct? Big no-no This is going to take more than an olive branch to fix!

2. Move high volume production overseas. I cant tell you how many times I have tried to order something for myslef or buds and the stuff isnt in stock. If I were a high volume retailer this would frustrate me to no end. There is no reason why overseas production cant be an option. Taiwan and China both have equal if not better resources to produce high tolerence parts. I have a feeling that there are some other factors at play here besides buisness practices.

Long term changes:

1. AGD MUST, MUST have an electro. The sad state of AGD has allowed the aftermarket to lead the manufature in design. To state that it would cost millions to build an electro is just complete bunk. Consider this since the inception of the emag there has been the centerflag hyper frame, devil, and coolhands electro. With the advent of the ULT, awsome!, there is no reason why we dont have a smaller battery pack emag, new micro switch sensor trigger that still maintains E, M, and hybrid. AGD could even offer 3 different emag levels, eye, no eye, or eye and lvlX.


Finaly,
There are more than issues than just a crappy website. AGD needs to don its great reputation to show the world how paintball should be, however the ball is in AGD's court. What are you going to do?


ehh.... I will write more later meet the press is on...

[SpitFire1299]

You know these are all good ideas but there is just too many hurtles to get over. Licensing, research and development investment, cost of parts, marketing dollars and at the end of the day there needs to be a profit so you can do it all again.

The margins in paintball are not high enough at the small manufacturer level to make this happen with its own dollars. It would take a multi million dollar infusion to get back in the game. The other option is to have a runaway product hit (like the I-Pod) that puts you back in the action. We tried this with several things like LV10 and Warp Feed which didn't have the required effect.

We are still trying to link up with a big money partner that can make things happen. This is not an easy or fast process especially given what's going on in paintball. AGD thanks you for your support and I wanted to let you know personally that while we are still just simmering in the pot I am still trying to make things happen.

Thanks,

AGD

Thanks so much for responding!!

I like the idea of a partnership, but who will it be? Do you have any ideas?

[AGDlover]

Tom, I understand what your saying completely and you have made awsome products in the past that has changed the paintball world. Infact the first time I saw and Emag was at challenge park when I first started playing and when the guy told me about it I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I will never stop tinking about mags that way. I believe AGD should get back into the Turny world instead of investing all of its money into the scenerio. Scenerieo yes has some possablitys but its not as popular as Turny ball is. If you came out with a completely new design intergrateing the xvalve performance with things most tuny ballers are looking for in a gun I believe you will have much MUCH greater sucess. Make it more air efficent, faster, lighter any thing you can do to it to make it a hype in the turny world because most ppl out there act on instinct and Hype.

My 2cents

-Andrew Seltzer-

[SCpoloRicker]

It needs to be in six color fade anno.

/low pressure?

[MadPSIence]

Frankly AGD needs a partner, then they need to get out a product that will make money in the non tourny market.. because that's where the money is. Then comes time for the super gun. They need the money to make the super gun because there's going to be a lot of investment and marketing in it.

One thing AGD could easily market is how customizable mags are. You basically have a choice of parts for everything except the internals.

Problem is if that were marketed... AGD would be losing business to it's own supporting small companies like RPG, Logic, DW, Tuna etc....

Maybe if these smaller guys became a part of the big plan something might happen.

[peewee]

I believe that AGD is making headway into the milisim / recball arena. Its a slower process than most would like. I honestly see more mags the last couple years than I did back in 2001/03. Its a slow uphill battle against two very entrenched competitors ( Tippmann & Kingman). Mags may never again be the hottest marker on the market in regards to sales . But I ask do they have to be??? I dont think so , being a niche suppier has never hurt the Palmers (who undoubtedly could "OWN" paintball from an autococker standpoint). Will AGD branch off into making other products? Barrels etc maybe, but no amount of complaining by us here at AO is going to change what they do.

[Dawg047]

I think the issue AGD has is their target market has dwindled away. Think of the "evolution" of a newer player's gun purchasing habits. Up until a few years ago, they usually started with a mechanical stacked-tube blowback or Tippman, moved up to a mechanical Autococker or AutoMag, and finally moved up into the world of electropneumatic markers. For a lot of newer players, the cost of upgrading equipment made this linear progress very common.

Nowadays, the cost of entry-level markers is very low, the cost of a "mid-grade" marker is very low, and only the newest of the new electropneumatic markers are priced out of most players' wallet. I can go to eBay right now and buy a brand new B2K4 for $200, and even Promasters can be found for $350. Factor in the current resale market and one can purchase awesome gear at awesome prices. As I'm typing this, I'm heading over to airgun.com to check prices... Hmm, a Pro Classic costs $229. What do I get for my moolah?

1. A SS powerfeed body (no thanks)
2. Mechanical CF single trigger frame (no thanks)
3. No lvl X (no thanks, and it costs $85 to add on?!?)
4. Crown Point barrel (eh, who uses stock barrels, anyway )
5. At least I get rubber wraps and not the plastic panels

I'm sorry, but this is simply not a competitive marker by any means (features, performance, price, etc.). Sure, the RT-ULE Custom costs $340, but again, I wouldn't be quick to proclaim any of the features of the stock configuration.

A few weeks ago, I picked up a BNIB '03 Excalibur for $420. Head over to airgun.com and see what you can buy for the same price, then ask yourself what you would rather have. To start you off, adding a black ULE body and lvl X to the Pro Classic will run you $371 (with no barrel). Go ahead, add an Intelliframe. I dare you. Say what you want about service and/or reliability. It's been my experience that my AGD products are no more or less reliable than any other products I own. They are just as user-friendly and user-serviceable as anything else I have. While AO is certainly a collaborative community, I've never found myself with a lack of support for any of my other markers.

Don't take this post the wrong way, as I absolutely love my E-Mag, consider it my primary, and have spent a lot of time and money on it to make it fit me. Out of all my markers, my E-Mag is the only one I can say works as an extension of myself. It's not something I can quantify, nor something I can put my finger on, but let's just say my E-Mag has a personality that meshes perfectly with mine. The problem is, AGD can't use something like that to sell their products.

Exactly.I love AGD but lets look at their current marketing. You can upgrade to an X-valve by exchanging your old valve plus the same amount it would cost to buy the x-valve straight out. That is crazy. Also, it cost the same amount of money to upgrade to a intelly or ULE then it does to buy it anyways. That in my opinion is really bad marketing. Now, what AGD needs to do in my opinion is start making something very universal that does not require alot of development and planning like a barrel kit. Make it real nice at a good price. Let's look at DYE for example. How did DYE start out let's ask. Well, they have an amazing rep for their barrels and their aftermarket parts. They started out small and put products out that people saw were high quality performance upgrades. Hey ,if their barrels are good, I'm sure their markers will be. AGD has been to the top and has fallen. They now need to start small again and build themselves up. Yeah, AGD has released things like the warpfeed and lvl.10 but hey, you can only use the lvlx. if you have a mag and the warpfeed had complications and is very heavy. If AGD even made lets say a unimount with some "agg" milling and "ninja" anno, people will eat it up. They even could move up to a Prest tank or something with a high recharge rate. Something people are going to eat up. It does not take alot. Build on small things and then BAMMM! Hit them with something like a X-valved mag with a spyder frame, eyes, and ramping that will go up to 96bps. Oh boy, that would get sales going.

[Miscue]

I don't think a new super gun is going to do it. The definitive paintball gun is not going to be any better than any other high-end marker... just over-engineered. The kids won't buy it... they won't understand... won't care.

I do not see a reason to reinvent the wheel. There's nothing wrong with continuing to use the XValve and LX as the underlying platform.

This is what I would personally do: Don't worry about the shops for now... accomodate the 3rd party people and tinkerers. Customization is key... cosmetic and electronic.

One-piece slug body and rail that supports ACE. A grip frame (maybe a slug variety as well) that 3rd parties/tinkerers can convert to an electro in 30 seconds with their own parts... cheaply. A new sear that helps to accomodate this process. Otherwise, the marker is mechanical out of the box.

It does not necessarily have to hold a board/battery... what's important is room for a solenoid. I can think of a lot of reasons why you'd want to be able to mount your BlackBox electronics... externally. And it can be done in a cosmetically acceptable way. Otherwise... make sure a couple of popular aftermarket boards will work in the frame.

Why put in stock electronics at all when these kids will rip them out and put something else in anyway?

[MadPSIence]

one marketing problem they'll need to face is, despite how sily it sounds... the extra macroline sticking out. Whether you have 1 foot of it going from your ASA to X-Valve or if you double line it..... most kids think it looks stupid and I've heard people say they wouldn't own a mag simply because of that.

[CoolHand]

I don't think a new super gun is going to do it. The definitive paintball gun is not going to be any better than any other high-end marker... just over-engineered. The kids won't buy it... they won't understand... won't care.

I do not see a reason to reinvent the wheel. There's nothing wrong with continuing to use the XValve and LX as the underlying platform.

This is what I would personally do: Don't worry about the shops for now... accomodate the 3rd party people and tinkerers. Customization is key... cosmetic and electronic.

One-piece slug body and rail that supports ACE. A grip frame (maybe a slug variety as well) that 3rd parties/tinkerers can convert to an electro in 30 seconds with their own parts... cheaply. A new sear that helps to accomodate this process. Otherwise, the marker is mechanical out of the box.

It does not necessarily have to hold a board/battery... what's important is room for a solenoid. I can think of a lot of reasons why you'd want to be able to mount your BlackBox electronics... externally. And it can be done in a cosmetically acceptable way. Otherwise... make sure a couple of popular aftermarket boards will work in the frame.

Why put in stock electronics at all when these kids will rip them out and put something else in anyway?

That's actually a pretty good idea 'Cue. Make the Mag into the Scion xA of the paintball world.

The only problem with that, is that AGD would have to toss that stuff out there, and then not support it. If they did, they'd forever be swamped and bogged down with a million kids who cannot tie their shoes correctly, but who thought they could build an electro from scratch. They will call, they will *****, they will whine, and they will slander, all because they were too stupid to realize that they were too stupid to handle the mods they wanted to do. Those are the folks who want it all, but don't want to pay anything for it. Which is why they are tinkers in the first place (because, hey, airsmiths are thieves, everyone knows we all have BMW's and yachts, and anyone can do the stuff we do, only better, cheaper, and faster ), its not because they are fascinated by mechanical systems.

I know it doesn't say much about the current PB player, but that's where we're at right now.

Its still a good idea, in theory at least.

[Miscue]

That's actually a pretty good idea 'Cue. Make the Mag into the Scion xA of the paintball world.

The only problem with that, is that AGD would have to toss that stuff out there, and then not support it. If they did, they'd forever be swamped and bogged down with a million kids who cannot tie their shoes correctly, but who thought they could build an electro from scratch. They will call, they will *****, they will whine, and they will slander, all because they were too stupid to realize that they were too stupid to handle the mods they wanted to do. Those are the folks who want it all, but don't want to pay anything for it. Which is why they are tinkers in the first place (because, hey, airsmiths are thieves, everyone knows we all have BMW's and yachts, and anyone can do the stuff we do, only better, cheaper, and faster ), its not because they are fascinated by mechanical systems.

I know it doesn't say much about the current PB player, but that's where we're at right now.

Its still a good idea, in theory at least.

It worked for the Autococker... and what I suggested is not as complex.

So you make new sales... and get some problem kids here and there... the exceptional cases. Well wait a second... new sales. I don't see the issue here.

[MadPSIence]

One huge thing AGD had was the image of the company itself. I think TK had a stronger image to us than the guns did. Nowadays... nobody really pays attention to the people behind the product as much as the flashing colors and insane milling etc..

AGD never was for that, I don't know how comfortable AGD, or we would be if they conformed to the more modern marketing.

[Miscue]

One huge thing AGD had was the image of the company itself. I think TK had a stronger image to us than the guns did. Nowadays... nobody really pays attention to the people behind the product as much as the flashing colors and insane milling etc..

AGD never was for that, I don't know how comfortable AGD, or we would be if they conformed to the more modern marketing.

The core values don't have to change. It's a matter of learning how to sing and dance... sometimes it takes a couple beers.

[CoolHand]

It worked for the Autococker... and what I suggested is not as complex.

So you make new sales... and get some problem kids here and there... the exceptional cases. Well wait a second... new sales. I don't see the issue here.

Oh no, don't misunderstand me, I'm all for it. You just have to do it like TAG did their DIY kits. They have a concrete warranty (IE once it leaves the concrete of TAG's shop floor, there is no warranty, no support, discuss it amongst yourselves and figure it out).

That's the only way you can support a product of that nature in today's PB culture. To do otherwise is to invite gray hair.

People ***** about the ION not having this or that or whatever, but I think that is exactly what people like about it. That's what they liked about the Impulse, that's what they liked about the Autococker, and that's what they like about the Ion.

Its a cheap blank canvas (which you can still play with out of the box, can't forget that part of it) that you can literally make into whatever you want it to be. Everyone wants to be unique. In a sea of people, everyone wants to be the only one with the things they have. I think this is the founding push behind gun whoring, regardless of what the stated reasoning is. They have a marker, but as soon as it becomes kinda common place, its gotta go, for something you don't see that often. How many people do you see advertising a 1 of X marker?

With an Ion, the thing is cheap enough to get and piece together how ever you want. To do the same with a Mag, will cost you three times as much.

What I think AGD needs to do is to take a page from SP's play book, and do a super cheap Mag platform to customize off of. Think about it, there is a lot of potential there.

Do away with the integrated reg (with a little fore thought, you can make it ready for a gas thru rail too). Ship it with a bare bones vert reg (everyone wants to be able to change them anyway, let them). Ship it with a plastic double trigger frame. Send along a crappy barrel that will at least put balls out the end. Most important of all, make it cheap (to start with).

Then start in with your aftermarket parts. Make a gas-thru rail (its easy, have Tom give me a call and I'll sketch it out for him ). Make a variety of frames and triggers (oh so many triggers, and at least as many frames as we have now). Sell a couple of feed tube options. Use your imagination. If they can make it for an Ion, you can make it for a Mag.

Of course, this will require a near 180 swing in the thinking over at AGD, which is likely not what they want, but you never know. Of course, since its not my company, I really don't have any right to ride them about what they are doing right or wrong.

I'm just tossing out an idea that, given the cash to realize it, I would have already been acting on.

[CoolHand]

The core values don't have to change. It's a matter of learning how to sing and dance... sometimes it takes a couple beers.

Exactly. You can still have a soul and be good at marketing. You just have to make sure your stuff actually gets pretty close to doing the stuff you say it will.