tell me about vikings

[rkjunior303]

matrixes in general feel lifeless to me. They dont move when I shoot, and that throws me off. I dont like it.

Try a Cyborg. I shot one for the first time over the weekend and you couldn't feel ANYTHING besides the bolt moving back and forth.

I would seriously look for a Cyborg -- Right now a stock 04 is the best deal in paintball.. Small, light, EFFICIENT, no kick and FAST.... Tadao makes a killer board for them.

[joeschmo]

I totally agree with you. Oh wait, i bought your gun

My favorite marker definately.

matrixes in general feel lifeless to me. They dont move when I shoot, and that throws me off. I dont like it.

thats why ppl like trixes, because its almost hard to tell youre even shooting them. And they are so quiet.

Its just preference guys w/ ANY high end gun. Everyone has their own like and feel of a gun. Nobody said that dye markers were the only guns worth buying and everything else cant compare. Again, its preference. Im just saying they are the smoothest shooting guns Ive ever shot. Including a viking w/ the LPR at 60 and the dwell at 13ms. When I did that to my viking it seemed to lob balls. And even w/ the LPR set correctly my viking seemed to curve downward more than other guns Ive shot. Everyone that I let shoot it noticed it too. That was the first thing out of their mouth. It was a consistent curve and easy to make it go where you want, but it did curve down. Read around the AKA forum on PBN, and others have said the same. The excal doesnt do it. I didnt like those settings, and it wasnt all that much smoother either. And I think the reason it felt smoother to you is because your friend jacked up his LPR on his DM. Mine LPR is at 2.5 turns, w/ an orange bolt, and a dwell of 14-15ms or so. No kick. Smoother than any poppet Ive ever shot, including a borg, viking, timmy, angel, excal, ego, and any other poppet system.

I agree though, poppets are more efficient, except some ppl claim about a case on a 68/4500 w/ an evolve bolt kit.

I get around 1400-1500 on my DM w/ orange bolt, 530 modded bolt guide, and tophat mod. And it shoots so much smoother than the viking Ive shot, and timmys, and borg.

out of the poppets that Ive shot, I liked the borg the best. Even over the viking. Its lighter, smaller, narrower, fast, efficient, etc. And the 06 borg looks better than the previous ones.

[rkjunior303]

I get around 1400-1500 on my DM w/ orange bolt, 530 modded bolt guide, and tophat mod. And it shoots so much smoother than the viking Ive shot, and timmys, and borg.

out of the poppets that Ive shot, I liked the borg the best. Even over the viking. Its lighter, smaller, narrower, fast, efficient, etc. And the 06 borg looks better than the previous ones.

here's where i disagree... i own a viking AND a DM4, and just recently shot an 04 Cyborg.. Completely stock, aside from a 2liter on it and Tadao for the board. This thing was smoother and had less kick than both of them. I liked it enough to consider picking one up once the 06's come out... The 04's (personally) look better (to me) and will be a STEAL once the new ones come out.

[joeschmo]

here's where i disagree... i own a viking AND a DM4, and just recently shot an 04 Cyborg.. Completely stock, aside from a 2liter on it and Tadao for the board. This thing was smoother and had less kick than both of them. I liked it enough to consider picking one up once the 06's come out... The 04's (personally) look better (to me) and will be a STEAL once the new ones come out.

Ive had a viking AND DM4 too. In fact, sold the viking after the DM4 cause I fell in love w/ the way it shoots.

what bolt do you have in your DM4? What LPR setting, What dwell? DMs shouldnt be kicking that much, unless something isnt set right. I recently switched to Dow 33 from using dye slick lube and it helped tremendously.

Ill bet if you shot my DM w/ orange bolt and other mods w/ my LPR that low, yould see what Im talking about. My LPR is prolly around 50 something psi, and the bolt is so much lighter that = less kick.

W/ the viking, you have the reciprocating mass of the ram, bolt. And you have a metal ram hitting a metal poppet valve which makes some noise. Those are the facts.

The viking has more jolt to it than the DM from higher reciprocating mass, higher LPR, and those are facts.

[Lohman446]

Ive had a viking AND DM4 too. In fact, sold the viking after the DM4 cause I fell in love w/ the way it shoots.

what bolt do you have in your DM4? What LPR setting, What dwell? DMs shouldnt be kicking that much, unless something isnt set right. I recently switched to Dow 33 from using dye slick lube and it helped tremendously.

Ill bet if you shot my DM w/ orange bolt and other mods w/ my LPR that low, yould see what Im talking about. My LPR is prolly around 50 something psi, and the bolt is so much lighter that = less kick.

W/ the viking, you have the reciprocating mass of the ram, bolt. And you have a metal ram hitting a metal poppet valve which makes some noise. Those are the facts.

The viking has more jolt to it than the DM from higher reciprocating mass, higher LPR, and those are facts.

Really? Not that I disagree but what is the reciprocating mass of the Viking and the spool valved markers? What is the LPR on the Viking he shot at in comparison to yours? Your conclusions may have some merit, but I question if they are based on accurate facts.

/Don't crucify me
//Owns a Matrix

[rkjunior303]

Ive had a viking AND DM4 too. In fact, sold the viking after the DM4 cause I fell in love w/ the way it shoots.

what bolt do you have in your DM4? What LPR setting, What dwell? DMs shouldnt be kicking that much, unless something isnt set right. I recently switched to Dow 33 from using dye slick lube and it helped tremendously.

Ill bet if you shot my DM w/ orange bolt and other mods w/ my LPR that low, yould see what Im talking about. My LPR is prolly around 50 something psi, and the bolt is so much lighter that = less kick.

W/ the viking, you have the reciprocating mass of the ram, bolt. And you have a metal ram hitting a metal poppet valve which makes some noise. Those are the facts.

The viking has more jolt to it than the DM from higher reciprocating mass, higher LPR, and those are facts.

my dm4 has definitely less kick than my viking, but keep in mind.. Mine is an 03, with a DC Volumizer so it does have less kick than an 04.... As for the DM4, I'm running at 15 or 16 dwell (i cant remember) and 3 1/2- 3 1/4 turns on the LPR (slick honey). Only think I have is the tape mod on the tophat..

BUT, we are talking about "stock" markers here.. Sure, with ALL that work, I bet you can get the DM4 to be smooth as butter .... The fact that this is a STOCK Cyborg is what really impressed me.

[joeschmo]

the reciprocating mass of the viking will be the bolt, bolt pin, hammer/ram, and ram shaft. The ram is stainless steel as is the ram shaft, and the bolt is delrin. The hammer alone weighs more than the bolt of a DM4, well, the orange bolt anyway. Even the stock bolt doesnt have hardly any kick. There is NO GUNS w/ NO KICK. ALL guns will have even a bit of kick. But its noticably less.

The reciprocating mass on a matrix is the bolt itself and thats it. The orange bolt weight is like .75 ounces or something like that. Its very light. And a bolt that light moving w/ an LPR setting of 50-55 or so psi will have less felt kick than a poppet style marker w/ a reciprocating mass of ? I dont know how much it is exactly, but the bolt alone is at least an ounce or more. Then add that to the weight of the hammer/ram/shaft. Thats your reciprocating mass. Then you have a LPR pressure of at least 60 (which I didnt like that setting) most are around 70-72psi. I had mine at 68 and it was not much different. COmparing it to a trix w/ a lighter bolt and a lower LPR pressure. I dont see how the viking could have less kick. When I shot my viking the barrel was moving around all over the place.

My viking was an O3 as well and I cut the back of the bolt off to lighten it up some, and it was still over an ounce. And I had the MM on mine too. The MM or DC volumizer does hardly squat for kick. At least none that has been proven. Thats what I gather from owning and shooting one w/o and with one, and from others personal testimony on PBN in the aka forum.

[Lohman446]

What about perceived kick, depending on how the Vike / Matrix in question balances. If I put a bull barrel on a paintball marker that alone is going to lessen the kick that most users "feel".

[joeschmo]

What about perceived kick, depending on how the Vike / Matrix in question balances. If I put a bull barrel on a paintball marker that alone is going to lessen the kick that most users "feel".

I havent noticed much a balance difference between the two markers in question here.

For what you do to one marker, you must do to the other if you are comparing kick between them. So if you compare a viking w/ a bull barrel on it, then the bull barrel must be put on the DM to check it. Dont slap a bull barrel on a viking and then an ultralite on the DM. I still dont think that would matter though.

on another note not mentioned earlier. What mods can you do to a viking to lower kick? None, other than cut the bolt back off. Cant even do that on the 04. What can you do to lower kick on the DM4? Orange bolt, evolve bolt, and any other bolt mods that dont really effect kick like the 530 mod, which is easy and free, and the tape, or tophat mod, that takes all of 10 seconds to do. Those mods arent extensive at all. The 530 just cuts off the two bars on the bolt guy allowing for better flow through the bolt and the tophat mod just decreases the volume of the dump chamber and is supposed to give better efficiency.

Thing is that these mods work against each other kinda. one decreases the volume of the dump chamber, and the other increases it. The mods are very simple and free to do. The orange bolt however is not free, but very simple to replace.

[Lohman446]

I havent noticed much a balance difference between the two markers in question here.

For what you do to one marker, you must do to the other if you are comparing kick between them. So if you compare a viking w/ a bull barrel on it, then the bull barrel must be put on the DM to check it. Dont slap a bull barrel on a viking and then an ultralite on the DM. I still dont think that would matter though.

on another note not mentioned earlier. What mods can you do to a viking to lower kick? None, other than cut the bolt back off. Cant even do that on the 04. What can you do to lower kick on the DM4? Orange bolt, evolve bolt, and any other bolt mods that dont really effect kick like the 530 mod, which is easy and free, and the tape, or tophat mod, that takes all of 10 seconds to do. Those mods arent extensive at all. The 530 just cuts off the two bars on the bolt guy allowing for better flow through the bolt and the tophat mod just decreases the volume of the dump chamber and is supposed to give better efficiency.

Thing is that these mods work against each other kinda. one decreases the volume of the dump chamber, and the other increases it. The mods are very simple and free to do. The orange bolt however is not free, but very simple to replace.

To some degree this is a point I was getting at - I doubt anyone has quantitavely compared them in a controlled situation. We have a lot of qualitative reports, from likely wildly uncontrolled comparisons.

[joeschmo]

you need scientific evidence to tell which has less jolt or kick when you shoot it? I dont. I can tell by shooting the darn things side by side.

What kicks more a .22 or a 12 gauge? you dont need a experiment to find that out.

[dahoeb]

either way,
both markers have very little kick and is neglibable.
i'd love to meet the person who walks off the field saying, "man i wouldn't have been shot out of my viking/dm didn't kick so much, geesh".